Crash sites Bremen to Verden

[Chuck Bondy]

I'm new to your forum. I had relatives on both sides in WWII. I;m looking for a list of B-17 crash sites in the Bremen-Verden area. Of particular interest is May 8, 1944, B-17, 42-102525. I have the MACR 4576. It says the plane went down near a town called Holtorf. Other records show "West of Verden near Martfeld and Holtorf", and then east of Verden near Holtorf... Via Michelin shows 5 towns named Holtorf and of course 2 of them meet the above locations. So, I'm wondering if there is a more reliable list, as I'm visiting there in a few weeks.. In addition, I'd like your opinion on something. I'm thinking about making up a brass memorial plaque for my uncle (USA side) and nailing it to a tree, near or at the crash site... Do you consider that rude or unlawful??? Thank you

 

[Snautzer01]

TSgt Edward Joseph Bondy (1923-1944) - Find A...
42-102525 | American Air Museum in Britain

Delivered Cheyenne 11/3/44; Gr Island 21/3/44; Grenier 6/4/44; Assigned 427BS/303BG Molesworth 9/4/44; transferred 338BS/96BG [BX-R] Snetterton 10/4/44; Missing in Action Berlin 8/5/44 with Chas Birdsey, Co-pilot: Bill Hayes, Navigator: Alf Hauser, Bombardier: John Bailey, Flight engineer/top turret gunner: Ed Bondy, Radio Operator: Bill Baumann, Ball turret gunner: Jim Ball, Waist gunner: John Burke, Waist gunner: Dick Kennedy,Tail gunner: Jack Roseborough (10 Killed in Action); enemy aircraft, crashed Holtorf, near Schwarmerheide, Ger. Missing Air Crew Report 4576. Crashed on 8 May 44 at 1130 hours

 

[Chuck Bondy]

TSgt Edward Joseph Bondy (1923-1944) - Find A...
42-102525 | American Air Museum in Britain

Delivered Cheyenne 11/3/44; Gr Island 21/3/44; Grenier 6/4/44; Assigned 427BS/303BG Molesworth 9/4/44; transferred 338BS/96BG [BX-R] Snetterton 10/4/44; Missing in Action Berlin 8/5/44 with Chas Birdsey, Co-pilot: Bill Hayes, Navigator: Alf Hauser, Bombardier: John Bailey, Flight engineer/top turret gunner: Ed Bondy, Radio Operator: Bill Baumann, Ball turret gunner: Jim Ball, Waist gunner: John Burke, Waist gunner: Dick Kennedy,Tail gunner: Jack Roseborough (10 Killed in Action); enemy aircraft, crashed Holtorf, near Schwarmerheide, Ger. Missing Air Crew Report 4576. Crashed on 8 May 44 at 1130 hours

I wish I could find Schwarmerheide on a map, so I could figure out which of the 5 Holtorf's on Via Michelin that it crashed near

 

[Snautzer01]

I wish I could find Schwarmerheide on a map, so I could figure out which of the 5 Holtorf's on Via Michelin that it crashed near

For that to be precise you need the mission map with the route for in this case Target Berlin. I think Schwarmerheide is a typo. I searched the other mentioned places for historical websites but no luck yet. Now i will try to find a local historical society that has ww2 in their intrest.

 

[Wurger]

"Schwarmerheide" is a conglomerate of two words "Schwarmer" and "heide" what is quite typical for the German language. The first one is a town in Lower Saxony , around 30 km south of Bremen. The second one means a meadow or moorland. So we can assume, the bomber could crash near the town somewhere on surrounding meadows.

 

[Snautzer01]

Yes, but an American aviator will not have known. He would have looked on his chart. So how did he come up with Schwarmerheide. Being shot at will not have benefited his map reading of course. In the MARC might have been a map pointing out the crash place.

 

[Wurger]

That's a good point as well.

 

[Chuck Bondy]

For that to be precise you need the mission map with the route for in this case Target Berlin. I think Schwarmerheide is a typo. I searched the other mentioned places for historical websites but no luck yet. Now i will try to find a local historical society that has ww2 in their intrest.

Hi, thanks for looking at this. I appreciate your help

 

[Chuck Bondy]

Yes, but an American aviator will not have known. He would have looked on his chart. So how did he come up with Schwarmerheide. Being shot at will not have benefited his map reading of course. In the MARC might have been a map pointing out the crash place.

Hi and thanks.

 

[Chuck Bondy]

"Schwarmerheide" is a conglomerate of two words "Schwarmer" and "heide" what is quite typical for the German language. The first one is a town in Lower Saxony , around 30 km south of Bremen. The second one means a meadow or moorland. So we can assume, the bomber could crash near the town somewhere on surrounding meadows.

Hi, I think 10 B-17's on that mission went down in that area on that day (May 8, 1945). so confusion may have added to it. I will surely start my search just south of Bremen at Holtorf and drive ESE from there and knock on a few doors and stop in a few shops

 

[Snautzer01]

Fold3 Search

MACR 4576

 

[Chuck Bondy]

Fold3 Search

MACR 4576

Hi, thanks for that. I have a copy. Outside of the possibility of a mismarked grave, the MACR and another German document show 2 crash areas. One south of Bremen, west of Verden near a city called Holtorf, and another east of Verden in a city named Holtorf.. I looked up driving directions on Via Michelin and I see the locations of both Holtorfs (incidentally there are 5 Holtorfs in that area).

 

[Snautzer01]

Hi, thanks for that. I have a copy. Outside of the possibility of a mismarked grave, the MACR and another German document show 2 crash areas. One south of Bremen, west of Verden near a city called Holtorf, and another east of Verden in a city named Holtorf.. I looked up driving directions on Via Michelin and I see the locations of both Holtorfs (incidentally there are 5 Holtorfs in that area).

Would help to see the german document.

 

[Frank Walther]

Dear Chuck !
Recently I noticed your search of B17 crash sites near Bremen.
I have some friends in SCHWARME (near SCHWARMERHEIDE) and asked them to ask some old people if the knew something about the crash location of your uncle and his crew.

Some time later they told me about two very, very interesting books of Ulf Kaack and Jürgen Kuhlmann named "LUFTKRIEG IN DER REGION". This book is based on notes of a police officer who listed all the crashes in the region south of BREMEN in his diary during ww2.

The two authors looked for witnesses and asked many people about their observations. Many crashes of Allied and German aircraft are described / localized and compared with historical data (e.g. missing air crew reports).
And indeed: the crash of "your" B17 42-102525 is also described and localized precisely ! The eyewitness interviewed said: "One dead man was sitting in the burning cockpit, two more were in the fuselage. As I heard, at least 8 soldiers are said to be killed. At that time the dead were buried in the Jewish cemetery in Hoyershagen".

If you are interested, I can try to get more information and visit the crash site.

Happy greetings from

Frank

 

[daveT]

I many cases the MARC form was completed later, sometimes after the war. that may be the reason they came up with Schwarmerheide on a map
I'm in germany researching crash sites myself, Almost all the town have town halls and many have small museums. I suggest you contact the closest ones. Also all the largest cities have historical museums and they can point you in the right direction. In addition there are several volunteer german groups trying to find crash sites using metal detectors and old documents, you could try and contact one of those.

 

[jimh]

Found this googling around for information on "Wee Willy", pretty interesting map.

Map of B-17 crash sites | B-17 Bomber Flying Fortress – The Queen Of The Skies

 

[Frank Walther]

Dear Chuck !

At February 18, 2020 I posted the following information. Unfortunatley I never got any response...: please be so kind and give me an answer: THANKS A LOT !


"Recently I noticed your search of B17 crash sites near Bremen.
I have some friends in SCHWARME (near SCHWARMERHEIDE) and asked them to ask some old people if the knew something about the crash location of your uncle and his crew.

Some time later they told me about two very, very interesting books of Ulf Kaack and Jürgen Kuhlmann named "LUFTKRIEG IN DER REGION". This book is based on notes of a police officer who listed all the crashes in the region south of BREMEN in his diary during ww2.

The two authors looked for witnesses and asked many people about their observations. Many crashes of Allied and German aircraft are described / localized and compared with historical data (e.g. missing air crew reports).
And indeed: the crash of "your" B17 42-102525 is also described and localized precisely ! The eyewitness interviewed said: "One dead man was sitting in the burning cockpit, two more were in the fuselage. As I heard, at least 8 soldiers are said to be killed. At that time the dead were buried in the Jewish cemetery in Hoyershagen".

If you are interested, I can try to get more information and visit the crash site.

Happy greetings from

Frank "

 

[fubar57]

Chuck hasn't been here since his post in 2019

 

[Frank Walther]

Thanks fubar57 !

Is there any chance to get contact to Chuck directly (phone / email) ?

I really would like to help him...

 

[ssg keay]

Try sending him a PM?