DB 605 X DB 603

Discussion in 'Engines' started by RATHED, Apr 30, 2007.

  1. RATHED

    RATHED New Member

    Joined:
    Jan 23, 2007
    Messages:
    28
    Likes Received:
    1
    Trophy Points:
    3
    I cant understant how the differences between the Dainler Benz 605 and 603 fit in to german plans for aircraft production. The 605 was the most produced german engine, with production in full swing for late bf109s. But the 603 was never really produced in high numbers. Only fitted the me-410, which we are still dicussig its usefulness, and was the planned engine for the Ta-152C and DO-335, both of which never saw combat.

    My question is why the germans never went seriously about creating a single engine fighter with the 603? As far as I know this engine was to big to fit the airframe of a 109, right?
     
  2. net_sailor

    net_sailor Active Member

    Joined:
    Nov 2, 2006
    Messages:
    315
    Likes Received:
    25
    Trophy Points:
    28
    Location:
    ElblÄ…g/Poland
    Home Page:
    There were other serial produced a/c with DB 603:
    Do 217 N&M
    Do 335 (preproduction series)
    He 219
    Me 410

    Prototypes:
    Fw 190C (only research stage with DB 603S/G)
    BV 155 (very promising a/c with DB 603U)
    Ta 152C (planned production version with DB 603LA/L)
    Fw 190D-14/15 (planned production version with DB 603EM)
     
  3. Denniss

    Denniss Active Member

    Joined:
    Oct 15, 2006
    Messages:
    835
    Likes Received:
    46
    Trophy Points:
    28
    The fighter Fiat G.56 was successfully tested with a DB 603, proably a DB 603A or 603AA. Pilots were delighted with this aircraft, fast and very maneuverable.

    AFAIK the Me 209 and Me 309 were also tested with a DB 603 but they proved to be more cost intensive than the Bf 109 while being slower (Me 209) or only slightly faster (Me 309).
     
  4. Aurum

    Aurum Member

    Joined:
    Jan 17, 2009
    Messages:
    122
    Likes Received:
    1
    Trophy Points:
    18
    When DB603 began to design (somewhen about 1941), what airplane it was planed to be installed on? What was it`s original consumer?
    Was it originally design to be equipped by cannon shooting throe propeller shaft?
     
  5. DerAdlerIstGelandet

    DerAdlerIstGelandet Der Crew Chief
    Staff Member Moderator

    Joined:
    Nov 8, 2004
    Messages:
    41,771
    Likes Received:
    687
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Occupation:
    A&P - Aircraft Technician
    Location:
    USA/Germany
    The DB 603 was actually originally used in a race car called the Mercedes-Benz T80. The car was supposed to be able to travel at speeds of 750kmh. It however never raced, and the engine was then adapted for use with aircraft. I have seen this vehicle by the way in Stuttgart at the Mercedes museum.

    [​IMG]

    The DB 603 was used in many aircraft however.

    * Blohm Voss BV 155
    * Blohm Voss BV 238
    * Dornier Do 217
    * Dornier Do 335
    * Focke-Wulf Ta 152 (change instead to use the Jumo 213)
    * Heinkel He 177B prototype aircraft series
    * Heinkel He 219
    * Messerschmitt Me 410
    * Heinkel He 277
     
  6. hrandy

    hrandy Member

    Joined:
    Feb 25, 2008
    Messages:
    30
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    6
    I think the DB 603 was a politically incorrect "private venture" that the political managers in LRM never warmed to. I think the LRM would have perferred DB to perfect the 606 and 610 double engines and saw the 603 as an unecessary distraction. Certainly as the war dragged on DB had more than enough problems with the 601/605.
     
  7. davebender

    davebender Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 18, 2009
    Messages:
    6,418
    Likes Received:
    64
    Trophy Points:
    48
    Location:
    Michigan, USA
    Development of the mid size DB603 and Jumo213 V12 engines was concurrent with development of the larger Jumo222 V24 engine. This was all cutting edge stuff during 1937 and nobody knew which engine project (if any) would actually work. Also nobody knew how much power these engines would produce when fully developed.

    It appears to me the larger Jumo222 was initially given priority. Once the war started RLM priorities changed. The Luftwaffe needed new engines ASAP and a V12 was viewed as quicker to develop to production status. So the Jumo222 project was shelved in favor of the DB603 and Jumo213 engines. Even though the Jumo222 was almost production ready.

    With the benefit of hindsight....
    Germany should have made a beeline for the DB603 and Jumo213 engines beginning during 1936. 1,750 hp versions of both engines would be in production during 1941. Meanwhile development of both engines continues until they achieve their full potential of 2,350 to 2,600 hp. Forego development of the V24 piston engines. The next generation of German propellor driven aircraft will be powered by Junkers designed turboprops.

    BTW, here is an excellent article on the development of the Junkers Jumo 022 turboprop. The He-177 needs one of these 6,000 hp turboprop engines under each wing. 8)
    Creation of the TV-2 (NK-12) turboprop engine
     
  8. psteel

    psteel Member

    Joined:
    Apr 30, 2006
    Messages:
    159
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    16
    #8 psteel, Jul 24, 2009
    Last edited: Jul 24, 2009

    Wow those Jumo 022 turboprops would have sucked back 4300kg of fuel per hour @ maximum power, giving only a 2-3 hour endurance, maybe 1400 miles range @ top speed ?

    Anyone know how much cruise power would have been on such engines?

    There is no doubt the german engine history was badly missmanaged. I remember reading Diest reporting that in the late 1930s the engine companies were only give 2 years to develope these new advanced engines, when history suggested that should take about 6 years to develope. Since they were atleast a generation behind the west and the thinking was that they needed to rush the technology to catch up.
     
  9. Aurum

    Aurum Member

    Joined:
    Jan 17, 2009
    Messages:
    122
    Likes Received:
    1
    Trophy Points:
    18
    Why did you conclude so?
    It is the table at the end of the article about JuMo 002/TV-2/NK-12 where is the figure of fuel flow - 0.36 kg/ehp-hour for JuMo 022. So it should be only 2160 kg/h at max. thrust this engine (design only).

    And the final engine of this line NK-12 of 12000 hp has only 0.16 kg/hp*h of fuel flow. So it take only 1920 kg per engine @ full power. So Tu-95 with four NK-12s are flying till now
     
  10. psteel

    psteel Member

    Joined:
    Apr 30, 2006
    Messages:
    159
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    16
    two engines on each plane thats 4300kg/hour. The plane carried 8-12,000 kg fuel depending on how much ordnance was carried, which should yield between 2 3 hours endurance.
     
  11. tomo pauk

    tomo pauk Creator of Interesting Threads

    Joined:
    Apr 3, 2008
    Messages:
    8,005
    Likes Received:
    441
    Trophy Points:
    83
    The usage of 603 could be described only as tragicomic (tragic for Luftwaffe, comic for Allies).
    The engine was there, the hull (Fw-190) was there. Yet the brass just was not letting that "German P-51" (TM by tomo pauk ;) ) becomes alive as early as 1942.
     
  12. pressurized

    pressurized New Member

    Joined:
    Dec 13, 2009
    Messages:
    5
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    1
    Actually, the DB603 was already under development when the T80 was authorized.... Daimler Benz was asked by Ernst Udet to supply engines for the land speed attempt by Hans Stuck. The DB601 was thought adequate at first, but Britains' Campbell upped the ante, so the prototype DB603, the V3, was enlisted. BTW, the DB603 was produced in such small numbers mainly because the DB head of design, Fritz Nallinger, never sought official sanction, but allowed development to proceed without the blessing of the RLM. As a result, it was always seen as a "stepchild".
     
  13. FLYBOYJ

    FLYBOYJ "THE GREAT GAZOO"
    Staff Member Moderator

    Joined:
    Apr 9, 2005
    Messages:
    23,208
    Likes Received:
    790
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Male
    Occupation:
    Aircraft Maintenance Manager/ Flight Instructor
    Location:
    Colorado, USA
    And your reference for all this?
     
  14. pressurized

    pressurized New Member

    Joined:
    Dec 13, 2009
    Messages:
    5
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    1
    Karl Ludvigsens " the V12 Engine". Buy it, read it, love it...
     
  15. Propellorhead

    Propellorhead Member

    Joined:
    May 5, 2010
    Messages:
    52
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    6
    Home Page:
    #15 Propellorhead, Jul 16, 2010
    Last edited: Jul 17, 2010
    [​IMG]

    The 1,750hp DB 603A was developed in 1937 and the 1,800hp DB 603E in 1939.

    The two stage supercharged high altitude DB 603G first made an appearance on the He-309 prototype in July 1942 as the DB 603EB which would have been a development prototype.

    Prototype Fw-190 V-32 was provided to Daimler Benz for testing with the DB 603G in late1943.

    Production of the DB 603G (aka DB 603EB) apparently ceased in mid 1944, however the engine continued development under various guises with modification upgrades after this, mainly with Methanol-Water kits. These later supercharged versions include the DB 603N (for 100 octane C-3 fuel) and DB 603L (for 87 octane B-4 fuel)

    There are indications that late in the autumn 1944, Focke Wulf was intending to switch from use of the Jumo 213 A-1 engine on their Ta-152 Dora D-9, to use of the DB 603 LA on the D-14, or DB 603G for the D-15 Dora.

    German engines were limited in how to raise power output by low octane fuels which they had available. Thus unlike the Western Allies who preferred to raise boost pressures the Germans were more absorbed with increasing engine compression. The DB-603 simply increased the power of it's predecessor by reboring and increasing the piston stroke.

    Dramatic increase in engine performance within the DB 603 series was obtained by the introduction of direct injection at a constant 50 Bar pressure, with short injection timings immediately after closing of the exhaust valve. This precise metering of fuel for each cylinder brought about by direct injection pumps made possible relatively high compression ratios and a reduction of engine sensitivity to variable fuel grades. Injector pump manifolds and their mechanical predictor mechanisms were provided by Bosch. Amongst other tasks these devices also controlled turbine speeds.

    I have been able to identify at least 122 individual DB 603G engines produced for various prototype aircraft, including 22 engines for Do-335 Pfeil (from October 1943), up to 18 engines for Bv-238 (from April 1944), 4 engines for Me-309 (from June 1942) and 8 engines for Arado 440 prototypes.

    (correction to earlier post): Ten Do-335 were ordered with DB 603G engines. The Do-335 A-0 ( stkz CP+UI ) originally the V-9 aircraft was subsequently fitted with DB 603G engines to become the V-1 prototype Do-335 A-4 series. A number of Do-335 A-1 aircraft were fitted with DB 603E-1 MW engines (ie using water methanol boost)



    Main sources:

    "Ottomotoren mit Direkteinspritzung: Verfahren, Systeme, Entwicklung, Potenzial" pub 2009, edited by Richard van Basshuysen, author Ulrich Spicher.pp:12-15

    "The Focke-Wulf 190--A Famous German Fighter", Heinz Nowarra, Harleyford, 1965
     
  16. Propellorhead

    Propellorhead Member

    Joined:
    May 5, 2010
    Messages:
    52
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    6
    Home Page:
    Daimler Benz however was not finished with the supercharged DB 603G as it was developing the DB 603L to supercede the DB 603G with addition of MW boost for the Do-335. There was also continued development of the DB 603N which some claim was fitted to the He-277.

    Also worth noting is that the DB 603S engine was in effect the DB 603A fitted with TK-11 turbosuperchargers in 1942 in development for the He-274. The He-274 of course flew for the French well into the 1950s using these engines.

    [​IMG]

    RLM dissatisfaction with the DB 603G came from it's inability to meet 100 hour operation between overhaul objectives (MTBO) with German experience of just 40 hours between removals. French experience with the similar DB 603S engine after the war was of continuing unreliability.

    The engine however continued to appear after production was supposedly cancelled. "Flugzeug Profile Nr. 10" by Dressel and Griehl reports the He 219 A7/R1 to R4 were equipped with DB603 G.

    The C-Amt Monatsmeldung (monthly report) production list for January 1945, found in GB archives also discloses that there were thirty five He 219 A-7 Uhu delivered with DB 603G engines long after production was thought to be cancelled.

    Confusingly a letter from Daimler Benz to propeller maker VDM dated 8th August 1944 notifies VDM that DB 603 engine makes continuing in production at that time were:

    DB 603A ; DB 603AA ; DB 603AS ; DB 603E ; DB 603L ; DB 603L ; DB 603N ; DB 603S ; DB 603U, engines yet the DB 603G was ordered for use in the Do-335 A-4 series in 1945.

    The only explanation perhaps is that either DB 603G production resumed, or else continued in the guise of another engine derrative type, possibly the DB 603L.

    As for the original question what was the purpose of the DB 605, this was intended to be a bigger bore, more powerful replacement for the DB 601 and able to fit the existing DB 601 engine mounts. DB 601A was the supercharged version.
     
Loading...

Share This Page