Did the Allies of WWI pave the way for WWII?

[Njaco]

I don't think we can separate American inter-war foreign policy from this topic because American inter-war foreign policy is equally as relevant as both British and French foreign policy of the same time and for that reason those comments were very pertinent to this thread. What I was saying was that it was a mistake for America to isolate itself during the inter-war years and that colonialism was rather a cheap excuse for this. I think that America realised the mistake of isolationism post World War Two but that while doing so has not admitted that isolationism was a mistake. Had America played a fuller part in World events then its influence may have made a difference, sometimes standing by is just as worse as joining in.
A very good example of the attitude of blaming everyone bar the Americans is displayed in Davebenders earlier post and that is what prompted my own.
I take the moving of the posts relating to American inter-war foreign policy to a different and wrongly titled thread as a reluctance to accept any criticism of America.
This is only an internet forum and not the UN, if we can't all discuss things openly without someone getting offended then things end up very one sided.
That is why I disliked the post.

Well then, I guess its time to merge ALL the threads on this entire forum into one continuous thread. Good luck trying to keep up with that - but you'll be free to post whatever you want. Free association!!

 

[pbehn]

Can you please explain what do you mean with this sentence?

Donl...I will try and also try to get this thread on topic. The influence of the Germanic peoples in Europe has always been profound, English is officially a Germanic language. The very name Germania comes from the Latin for "our brothers" as in Gemini. After the collapse of the Roman Empire the Angles and Saxons populated what is now Great Britain and many other places too. By a chance of geography and politics present day France was always (almost always) the biggest single power in Western Europe. After the Norman invasion of Great Britain French monarchs controlled France Great Britain Ireland and huge swathes of land all the way to the middle east. Eventually internal conflicts lead to the 100 yrs war between France and England and territories won by the crusaders were lost. For hundreds of years the people of present day Germany lived but were never a united entity. At the time of Luis Dauphin the northern German states Netherlands and British fought the French and Bavarians. Then came Napoleon, napoleon destroyed completely the balance in Europe and created the idea of nationalism, not only French nationalism but also German and Italian Nationalism. After the defeat of Napoleon, Bismark was able to unify Germany on nationalist grounds, previously the southern states of Germany were more aligned with France as a catholic State. Following the Franco Prussian war and the unification of Germany and also Italy France was no longer a huge fish in a small pond it was one of a few big fish and didn't like it much. With the defeat of Germany in the first world war in my opinion France did everything it could to take Germany out of the game as an economic and therefore military power. For the British who were always a maritime power rather than a land power they got a nasty shock at the capability of the German navy. The British had no interest in helping a united Germany compete as an industrial power.

I said "the process is still going on" because I believe it is. France is trying to control Germany politically using the second world war into shaming Germany into financing the great Euro project. The British are just as bad wheeling out Adolf every time Germany demands that the money it pays into the Euro project is paid back.

For the Germans I know no one who was involved in WWII although in previous years I have had a beer with ex POWs (and a great time we had too) however almost every German I know has a Deutschmark coin or note either in his wallet or at home, as I see it modern day Europe and the Euro is seen as a sort of penance they must pay for their forefathers mistakes.

This is a potted history to try to get back on topic and answer a question feel free to pick holes I have no axe to grind here.

 

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

Thank you pbehn for moving this back in the right direction.

 

[DonL]

Donl...I will try and also try to get this thread on topic. The influence of the Germanic peoples in Europe has always been profound, English is officially a Germanic language. The very name Germania comes from the Latin for "our brothers" as in Gemini. After the collapse of the Roman Empire the Angles and Saxons populated what is now Great Britain and many other places too. By a chance of geography and politics present day France was always (almost always) the biggest single power in Western Europe. After the Norman invasion of Great Britain French monarchs controlled France Great Britain Ireland and huge swathes of land all the way to the middle east. Eventually internal conflicts lead to the 100 yrs war between France and England and territories won by the crusaders were lost. For hundreds of years the people of present day Germany lived but were never a united entity. At the time of Luis Dauphin the northern German states Netherlands and British fought the French and Bavarians. Then came Napoleon, napoleon destroyed completely the balance in Europe and created the idea of nationalism, not only French nationalism but also German and Italian Nationalism. After the defeat of Napoleon, Bismark was able to unify Germany on nationalist grounds, previously the southern states of Germany were more aligned with France as a catholic State. Following the Franco Prussian war and the unification of Germany and also Italy France was no longer a huge fish in a small pond it was one of a few big fish and didn't like it much. With the defeat of Germany in the first world war in my opinion France did everything it could to take Germany out of the game as an economic and therefore military power. For the British who were always a maritime power rather than a land power they got a nasty shock at the capability of the German navy. The British had no interest in helping a united Germany compete as an industrial power.

I said "the process is still going on" because I believe it is. France is trying to control Germany politically using the second world war into shaming Germany into financing the great Euro project. The British are just as bad wheeling out Adolf every time Germany demands that the money it pays into the Euro project is paid back.

For the Germans I know no one who was involved in WWII although in previous years I have had a beer with ex POWs (and a great time we had too) however almost every German I know has a Deutschmark coin or note either in his wallet or at home, as I see it modern day Europe and the Euro is seen as a sort of penance they must pay for their forefathers mistakes.

This is a potted history to try to get back on topic and answer a question feel free to pick holes I have no axe to grind here.

Hello pbehn thank you for your analyse and happy birthday belated.

I don't know how much you are involved in german politics, but France is betting on a very dead horse if they are believing united Euro Bonds will ever be introduced with german politicians. Every politician in Germany knows he will massively loose every election with Euro Bonds, that's a fact from the last election and countless polls.

France has lost it's power over Germany first at 1991 with the German reunification and second with it's very ill economy.
France has at the present enormous economical and financial problems and an aimlessly government.

Mr. Hollande is trieing since near two years with every power and sometimes threats (also with the support from Mr. Obama) to convince the german government for united Euro Bonds, he can do this till the next century without success. With the german citizens at elections, there will be no Euro Bonds.

Also from my understanding the German economy benefits a lot from the Euro, more then most other economies at Europe through our huge trade surplus.

My analyse is, that Germany is at the moment the biggest economical power in Europe and also the biggest political power, because without german money there is not so much going to happen. But the german government takes the political power very carefully, but also has learned to fight for their own interests without much fuss.

In France and England, Mrs Merkel is also known as Madame and Mrs. No and she has promised to the german citizens that she will stay to this No and fight for german interests.
As long as the german economy is this strong nobody (no other country/government )can control to my opinion the german government.

I think Germany is matured and isn't under the control of anybody, but we are fighting for our interest more carefully and much more gentle then at 1914 or 1939 and also we are showing solidarity to a certain point.
But we are far away from being manipulated.

 

[Shinpachi]

We are all going to have to learn Mandarin anyway soon when our Chinese Overlords call in the debts the western world owes them. Szcechuan Chicken and noodles for me.

My country has no debts but credits to them.
However, they have never refunded any of them till now if my memory is correct.
I don't think you have to pay

 

[Lucky13]

My analyse is, that Germany is at the moment the biggest economical power in Europe.....

Would that be of those, that traded in their currency for Euro? I know that Sweden and the UK didn't go for it a few years back...don't know if anyone voted against it....

Anyhoo, I think that I'm drifting away from the topic of this thread...

 

[Njaco]

You're not the first......

 

[michaelmaltby]

"...I don't think you have to pay..."

There's debt, Shinpachi, and then there's debt within the family ...

 

[fastmongrel]

My country has no debts but credits to them.
However, they have never refunded any of them till now if my memory is correct.
I don't think you have to pay

I have just been reading an article in the Observer sunday newspaper about the US bond market. Basically Chinese money is the bond market at the moment only the Chinese Govt have the funds to play with. If China had a change of policy and they decided to invest there spare trillions somewhere else then the US and half the rest of the world is going to catch a massive cold. If the bond market collapses and it is thought that US bonds are trading between 2 and 3 times what the natural price should be then the US Federal reserve can not carry on pump priming the US economy as it has been doing. It gives me the shivers to think that the US and European economy hangs by Bejings thread, they would be mad to destroy there biggest market but maybe they could use the threat to squeeze our balls to get there own way.

Like I said probably best to start Mandarin lessons or at least start teaching it to our primary school kids.

 

[syscom3]

Like I said probably best to start Mandarin lessons or at least start teaching it to our primary school kids.

When you oew the bank a billion dollars, you're in trouble. When you owe the bank a trillion dollars, the bank is in trouble.

 

[Shinpachi]

I need further research but you are forgetting that our goverment owns equivalent amount of the US bond to China and can increase it double if necessary thought it must be limited temporary one. I feel no threats at the moment.

 

[michaelmaltby]

".... I enjoy a bit of banter so feel free to ....."

Thanks pattle, I will. The news reported from Athens this morning states the some poor, debt-enslaved individuals machine-gunned the German Embassy overnight. That's it -- strike back at The Man ....

Hey, Shinpachi, please correct me if I am wrong .... but ... it is my understanding that Japanese Federal Debt (massive) is held in the form of bonds largely purchased by Japanese individuals and institutions .... is that essentially correct ..??

M

 

[Shinpachi]

"
Hey, Shinpachi, please correct me if I am wrong .... but ... it is my understanding that Japanese Federal Debt (massive) is held in the form of bonds largely purchased by Japanese individuals and institutions .... is that essentially correct ..??
M

A keen question, MM
Japanese bonds are largely owned by the Japanese investment institutions like city banks and, of course, individuals as you point out.

This has nothing to do with your question directly but, imagining your intention, our government owned trillions debts to the domestic investors beside the reparation when the war was over. In spite of being in the devastation, the Japanese goverment paid all debts to those investors by/around 1950. Where did they get such money? USA? No. They imposed new income tax of the same amounts on the same day.

 

[michaelmaltby]

"....Where did they get such money? USA? No. They imposed new income tax of the same amounts on the same day."

And the Japanese people themselves have traditionally been great 'savers' have they not ...?

As I said earlier: " ..There's debt, and then there's debt within the family.."

 

[Lucky13]

Didn't Germany suffer a great depression just after the WWI, before the great depression itself, or do I remember wrong?

 

[Shinpachi]

You know about our culture very well, MM

Imperial Japanese Army and Navy were disbanded but the bureaucratic organization survived.
As long as I am a Japanese, I will never buy the Japanese bonds!



Sorry for my off-topic, Jan!

 

[DonL]

Didn't Germany suffer a great depression just after the WWI, before the great depression itself, or do I remember wrong?

They suffer not a great depression after WWI but they suffer

1. hunger crisis at 1918 and 1919
2. A very big Inflation through the Ruhr fight with France 1923 with the introduction of a new currency after the big inflation.

 

[Lucky13]

Aaaah.....maybe it's that I'm thinking about, cheers mate!

 

[michaelmaltby]

"....They suffer not a great depression after WWI but they suffer..."

... and add to that list an 'almost' communist revolution ... with street figning ... and in the sewers too, IIRC

 

[yulzari]

The news reported from Athens this morning states the some poor, debt-enslaved individuals machine-gunned the German Embassy overnight. That's it -- strike back at The Man ....
M

Have I gone suddenly dim or was it not the Greeks spending money like they had a German economy who got themselves into the mess when someone noticed the Emperor had no clothes?

Anyway, a warm welcome to the Eurozone Latvia.