Difference between G and K model Bf.109

Discussion in 'Aviation' started by Sagittario64, Nov 23, 2011.

  1. Sagittario64

    Sagittario64 Member

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    How can you visually tell the difference between the late model Bf.109G-10 and the Bf.109K-4 from not so revealing pictures and profile drawings? for as far back as i can remember, ive identified 109 late model fields by their tail wheels. the E model is instantly recognizable anyways. the F-model had a retracted tail wheel that was not covered. the g models had fixed tailwheels, later models having longer ones. but the k models had clean tails, with fully retractable and covered tail landing gear
    the f model can be easily separated from the k model because all k's sported erla cockpit canopies, and all f's didnt
    [​IMG] Bf.109F
    [​IMG] Bf.109G
    [​IMG] Bf.109K
     
  2. Ratsel

    Ratsel Banned

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    20cm extended retractable tailwheel(k), small main landing gear door covers(k), relocated DF loop radio access hatch(k), , are the main ways. Also type 99/100/110 cowls, Werknummer's also helpful.
     
  3. Sagittario64

    Sagittario64 Member

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    yes but im just beginning to delve into the intricacies of the bf.109 design, im basically a newbie when it comes to the cowling types for example. so i likely wouldnt see a difference in pictures because i wouldnt know what specifically to look for
     
  4. Ratsel

    Ratsel Banned

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    #4 Ratsel, Nov 23, 2011
    Last edited: Nov 23, 2011

    1.jpg
    G-5 is the same as G-6
    2.jpg

    3.jpg
    G-5AS G-6AS used type 100

    4.jpg
    G-10 G-14AS used mostly type 110

    5.jpg
     
  5. Sagittario64

    Sagittario64 Member

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    Youve shed a lot of light on it, but im still not seeing a recognizable (non-tailwheel and non radio loop) difference between the G-10 type 100 and the K-4
     
  6. Sagittario64

    Sagittario64 Member

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    most of the small differences in lines on the fuselage and cowling would have been covered up or obscured by paint or image quality
     
  7. Ratsel

    Ratsel Banned

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    Late G-6 through G-10's have there DF loop near the 3rd frame station whereas K-series and theres near the 4th ( round thing top of rear fuse near canopy).The radio hatch is between 5th and 6th frame stations on F - G series, and in between the 4th and 5th frame stations on K-series. Also a little higher. Also, theres big differences in all cowl types.
     
  8. Alte Hase

    Alte Hase Member

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    The main visual identifyer for me is the K's outboard gear doors. Not only does it have the large gear doors common to all series 109s, which are attached to the main gear legs, but on the opposite side of the wheel well,on the outboard side, it has a small gear door too. No other 109s had this so it's very evident on the K series...
     
  9. Njaco

    Njaco The Pop-Tart Whisperer
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    I believe also all K's had a wooden rudder and therefore you see the straight demarcation with the hunges. On some later G models also sported the wooden tail and may confuse matters.

    Alot comes down to which type of G model.....
     
  10. Sagittario64

    Sagittario64 Member

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    im talking about G-10s and G-14s, the closest g models to the k model
     
  11. Ratsel

    Ratsel Banned

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    G-14's have huge round beules ( machine gun covers ) on the cowl. G-10's do not. Much harder to tell a -14 form a -5/6. G-14AS if equip with 37.5 liter oil tank has the fill cover on the front cowl lower then the 50.5 liter G-10 oil tank. G-14AS G-10AS very simular.
     
  12. vanir

    vanir Banned

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    #12 vanir, Nov 23, 2011
    Last edited: Nov 23, 2011
    In 1945 production (after FEb) there is no appreciable difference between a G-10, G-14/AS or a K-4. Even the tailwheels on K models were locked down and closed over, just like on a G-10. All the same panelling and external parts are used. Even the oil fillers are in the same spot, because the ASB engine uses the DB engine main block and heads (only difference is blower).

    The differences are marked in about Oct 1944. The G6 and G14 there is no appreciable difference except MW50 is standardised on the G14 (simplest way of looking at them, it's actually the instrument panel that's the only real difference). And G10 combine G6 surplus parts/tooling with as many K4 components as available, but any G6 parts used will be new.

    The G10 always is equivalent to the K4, usually they're a bit lighter because the K series has a lot more fittings installed at the factory (the wiring for gondolas are there even if you don't order them, things like that).

    The way you tell between a G14 in 1944 and a K series or G10 is the oil cooler filler. They're in a different spot between the 605A series and D series motors. Another good way is to just track the werk nummer.


    You tell a G from an F by the same way, the motor. The 605 motor has a lot of termperature issues so the G onwards has some small cooling louvrés at the very front cowling either side, right behind the prop spinner. The F series doesn't have these.

    All other things, like the landing gear, most fitted equipment, at some points the engine, the degree of K parts used, none of these things can reliably identify a model. Production in germany was a real mess in 1944, they assembled a tremendous number of Messers that year, but it was done by industry just throwing everything up in the air and going for broke, they were just desperate to get as many a/c out in the parking lots as possible.

    Pilots just walked onto the lot, and the logistics officer had them sign a tablet, then said, "Pick whatever plane you want." And they walked off and left you there, with every Messerschmitt model and equipment fit imaginable, the K and the G14, whatever you wanted. They didn't care what you took.
    Seyringer's words, not mine.




    with your pics, the Type 110 (this kind of nomenclature means "modified") G10 is the erla model. It has a flat cowling on the port side, the starboard side is faired like the G6/AS. The G10 type 100 (means "standard"), has the same G6/AS fairing on both sides. The Erla one is more streamlined, pilots referred to it as the fastest Messer of the war, the K included. And Erla G10, Bär IIRC said was the only one you could reliably top 700km/h with in a combat encounter, very few planes could do that in practise, it was very very quick.

    for prosperity there is the standard cowl (normal, F series with a couple of louvrés), the bulged cowl (extended-modified: type 100) and the faired cowl (modified-modified: type 110). De buele, etc. those are the translated german terms for them.

    Here's a couple of scans extrapolating later production G14/AS-1945 (with D block ASB motor), and Erla G10, with some of the differences to regular G14, G14/AS-1944 and G10.
    ANRCM-80.jpg
    ANRCM-81.jpg


    one final point, I've watched guys over at LEMB argue and change their minds about whether a detailed series of close up wartime photos of a late war Messer was a G14, G10 or K4, and they changed their minds a few times in the thread until they pinned it down. And those guys are the serious experts, their libraries are amazing.
     
  13. Sagittario64

    Sagittario64 Member

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    LEMB? where is this? can you post me a link or some information to them?
     
  14. Ratsel

    Ratsel Banned

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    Careful with Peter.. if you type bf 109G-6 or bf109g-6 or the big no no me 109g-6 instead of the 'proper' way of Bf109G6 he'll have a fit. Their funny that way over there LOL..

    but yah the info is pretty good. I'm a silent observer :p

    you need to register to view: http://www.luftwaffe-experten.org/forums/index.php?act=idx
     
  15. Sagittario64

    Sagittario64 Member

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    Thanks. So what youve said perks up another question. what the germans were doing wasnt exactly increasing production in the traditional sense? they were just assembling parts and frames already made en masse?
     
  16. Ratsel

    Ratsel Banned

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    G-10's( some Mtt-Reg, Erla/WNF were the main producers. K's ( Mtt-Reg effort) were brand new airframes. G-14's were not brand knew for the most part. G-14/AS was just re-engined G-14's with a different cowl ( type 110 ).
     
  17. Sagittario64

    Sagittario64 Member

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    Can you give me some information on the production of Bf.109's from start(A-model) to finish(K-model)? i kinda get what youre saying but im definitely not knowledgeable on the bf.09 manufacturers and how they affected production and the certain models flying around
     
  18. spicmart

    spicmart Member

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    It might be a little OT but I have this question: to me the tailwheels of german fighters always seem broader and bigger than the ones of other nations making them more draggy, slowing them down more. Can anybody tell why that is so?
     
  19. Alte Hase

    Alte Hase Member

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    That's an interesting observation, but many (such as the FW190 and later 109s) did in fact retract in flight, causing little or no drag...
     
  20. Tante Ju

    Tante Ju Banned

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    I am not sure - both German fighter was small in size relative, so might be an optical illusion? Do we know size of rear tire for example? Other explanation for example 109 was tail heavy, so maybe this required stronger tires.

    Original poster question: imho best way tell G and K is look at DF loop position (K is rearer position). This is almost always visible, and like other say, other things like were sometimes common, like wheel cover that was sometimes present, sometimes not, or does not seen on picture... telling early G and F is also difficult, best is to look at canopy. G is much more heavy construction, and do not have small window low-front, its solid plate instead. Good way also to tell is look at wheel bay - circular on F, rectangular on G. Otherwise they are exact identical, I cannot tell difference between propeller and oil cooler..
     
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