Do 335 vs Me 262

[SoD Stitch]

Okay, there seems to be a definite subliminal debate going on in a number of threads (including a couple of recent ones) concerning which aircraft had the better future. One of these aircraft never actually reached combat, yet exhibited quite a bit of potential, especially in the bomber-destroyer role. The other aircraft was quite successful in this role, even though there were only ever a limited number of aircraft available at any given time. The first aircraft represented the epitome of reciprocating engine aircraft development, whereas the other exhibited unheard of potential, while still being limited by inferior materials and insufficient logistics.

Which aircraft SHOULD the Third Reich have concentrated on late in the War? An aircraft using a tried-and-true technology, yet still exhibiting spectacular performance? Or a revolutionary aircraft using revolutionary propulsion (literally), yet limited by the inferior quality of it's materiel and logistics?

I would argue that, yes, the Me 262 WAS a tremendous success; however, what the Third Reich really needed in late '44/early '45 was a reliable and effective means of destroying invading Allied bombers, hence the Do 335 (and, by extension, the Ta 152/153 series of aircraft). Unfortunately, the Me 262 was limited by the life-span of it's propulsion system, which had an MTO of approximately 25 hours (sometimes less); the Do 335 had no such limitation. Also, the training of pilots should have been much easier (and safer), as they would be dealing with a technology with which they should already have been familiar with.

Please vote as to which aircraft you think SHOULD have been a production priority in the late War struggle against the Allied bomber campaign over Germany.

 

[comiso90]

No contest IMO.

>>Which aircraft SHOULD the Third Reich have concentrated on late in the War?

The 262 could have been a better bomber killer/fighter much earlier if certain arrogant bozos didn't lack vision. In addition to the many performance supremacy's, the 262 had psychological advantages that cannot be under stated. Unless a piston aircraft had the high ground and the 262 was out of energy, the 262 must was a feared opponent. Kinda like a F-22 taking on a flying saucer.

The performance of the Pfeil was admirable but I'd have to see manufacturing stats to change my mind.

Are you talking about 2000 ME 262's vs. 2000 Do 335's? Or 1000 262's vs. 3000 Do 335's? The economy of the manufacturing could decide the vote.

It's easy to say that three times as many 335's would have done the Reich more good but IMO the Pfeil would not have been a great fighter.

Bomber destroyer supreme... yes.. but swarms of P-51's would have ate it for lunch.

 

[KrazyKraut]

Me 262 was the future. I think the average lifespan thing of the engines is a bit overrated: engines could be swapped rather easily on the 262 and average lifespan of a pilot in '45 was not much better than that of the Jumo. Engines were much less the problem than availability of proficient pilots to fly the thing.

I also doubt the Do was much easier on the newbies: The configuration and the size and weight sure were very different from what 109 pilots were used to. Compared to the 262 its airframe also had more quirks to be ironed out, at least that's what I gather from reading about it. There was a proposed mixed-propulsion version that may have been promising. But then, how much faster than the 750+something km/h could a prop fighter go? It was already bumping into aerodynamical limitations. The 262 had the potential to reach 900 km/h with the developments that were already underway and even with the same 004B engines.

 

[lesofprimus]

262, for all the reasons above...

 

[Wayne Little]

Have to go with the Me262...

As Comiso said the bozos didn't see it for what it was...it WAS the next step in aircraft evolution, yet it was bogged down in so much BS...

 

[Erich]

and please rule out the Ta 152H altogether as it was designed for high interception of the Allies escort fighters not designed for bomber interception, though if had to it could.

 

[Gnomey]

262, for all the reasons above...

Bingo, the same reasons for me as well.

 

[SoD Stitch]

Have to go with the Me262...

As Comiso said the bozos didn't see it for what it was...it WAS the next step in aircraft evolution, yet it was bogged down in so much BS...

You're right, the 262 could've entered service AT LEAST one year earlier than it did, if only the higher-ups had had their thinking caps on. I'm sure there are a lot of reasons why it didn't (politics comes to mind), but the bottom line is, if they had more or less perfected the engine technology a year earlier (the airframe was almost perfect; IIRC, the airframe was actually more aerodynamically efficient than the P-80's), I'm sure the War would've lasted much longer than it did.

 

[GrauGeist]

Definately the Me262 has my vote, as the Germans had jet technology on a learning curve advanced far enough that enhancements and upgrades were within arm's reach.

Ironically, Heinkel had the He280 combat ready before Messerschmitt's 262 and for a host of reasons, the 280 never reached production. Yet another saving grace for the allied effort.

If Hitler wasn't so obscessed with keeping the 262 as a bomber and allowed it to be the true fighter Willy had envisioned, there would have been a major shift in the airwar and related technology.

(And Galland wouldn't have threatened mutiny...lol)

 

[<simon>]

262 all the way..

Dornier was fast yes but was totally outclassed but 262

 

[Soren]

The Me-262 not doubt, in its presence it rendered all other fighters obsolete.

 

[comiso90]

The 262 is a vastly superior aircraft but The Pfeil would have been cheaper and easier to manufacture.

What's better.... 500 ME-262s or 2000 Do 335s?

 

[Soren]

500 Me-262's. Why ? Because they're close to untouchable if flown by experienced pilots.

With fighter cover the Do-335 would've been an excellent bomber destroyer, no doubt about it, but alone it simply didn't have high enough a performance to allow it to fight both the bombers and the escorts at the same time... The Me-262 on the other hand did.

 

[Erich]

and both needed or would of needed high cover protection on taking off and landing during the day..............and enver fully received it in the case of the 262.

also a thought would be to look at fuel consumption for both a/c pretty lame and during late war very very troublesome

 

[SoD Stitch]

500 Me-262's. Why ? Because they're close to untouchable if flown by experienced pilots.

Unfortunately (or fortunately, depending on your POV), the Third Reich did not have very many "experienced pilots". The few who survived the War to late '44/early '45 were very good, but that was probably 5% of the Luftwaffe's total pilot force in '44/'45; the other 95% were either totally new, or very lucky. What the Luftwaffe needed was an a/c that new pilots could fly effectively, without demanding too much of their attention. Yes, the Me 262 was an ace-in-the-hole, if you knew what you were doing; however, most LW pilots in late '44/early '45 didn't know what they were doing. My argument is that a "known" quantity (the Do 335) was a safer bet than an "unknown" quantity (the Me 262).

 

[kool kitty89]

I don't think the Do-335 would really be more economical either, it was a large and fairly complex aircraft requiring 2 rather large and expensive piston engines engines.

The jet engines may have been troublesome, but they were relatively cheap and quick to build compared to large piston engines. (even moreso with the BMW 003 as it could be built faster, had a much longer lifespan, and longer service intervals than the 004; granted the 004B was available sooner)


And on the fuel issue it's two fold: 1. shortages of actual available fuel supplies (not the case for turbine engines) and 2. the poor state of the German transportation network making it extremely difficult to get fuel where it was needed.

The Me 262 only suffered from the latter fuel supply issue. Despite being rather thirsty, turbojets had one big advantage fuel wise: they could be made to run on a wide variety of fuels without difficulty. In this case, J2 fuel was the standard, which was basicly common Diesel (iirc with some added components -snti-gelling agents- to retain it's fluidity at low temperatures) and there were still large quantities of Diesel in the German inventory at the war's end.

So the as far as fuel goes, the gets were more practical.

 

[Soren]

SoD Stitch,

It's true that experienced pilots were far and in between in the LW by late 44 to 45, but I'd still rather have my rookies flying a/c which were over 100 mph faster than their opponents, cause then they atleast get a decent chance against the numerically superior enemy. The Do-335 didn't have the same vast advantage in performance, and so it could've been rather easily caught by the Allied escorts.

 

[Soundbreaker Welch?]

There's a Do 335. It looks like it could be lunch for a P-51. The tail section looks like it could slow it down.

And yet, it was a massive fighter. Even bigger than the P-47. Maybe it could have done some damage as a fighter.

I had one interesting idea. What if both engines caught on fire? The pilot would be in a death trap.

An experimental nightfighter Do 335 that never saw service.

 

[Soren]

I think a P-51 would have its hands full in a fight with a Do-335. But the speed advantage of the Do-335 simply wasn't great enough to ensure it a high enough safety when attacking the bombers, and it didn't allow it to fight two threats at once, unlike the Me-262 which performance advantage was so great (esp. at high speeds) that it could attack the bombers and then turn around to engage the escorts.

 

[Erich]

a couple of things the Do 335 wuld of been meat with the P-541 there was just too many Allied escorts

the heavier armament of the Do was not needed in fact the four 3cm on the Me 262 was too much in the case of the night fighters, it was found the 3cm in all cases at night provided a terrible backflash glare to the pilot, one of the reason even for the reduction of the 3cm out of the He 219 by NJG 1 turning to four 2cm in the belly or two there and two in the wing roots.

the planned future for the 262 nf was to have enclosed fuel tanks into the fuselage to double, possible triple it's range