Do we need bigger amphibian water bombers?

[Admiral Beez]

Given the wildfires across Canada and the US, does North America need an amphibious water bomber larger than the twin-engine Canadair CL-215/415?

The Russians, for example have the much larger Beriev Be-200 and the Chinese the AVIC AG600M, while Japan is proposing a water bomber variant of their ShinMaywa US-2. The later two of these larger water bombers are four engined.

Japan's ShinMaywa floats fire-fighting US-2 amphibian

Japan's ShinMaywa Industries has unveiled specifications for a fire-fighting variant...

www.flightglobal.com

 

[Crimea_River]

In my opinion, no. We need to be expanding 415 production, taking more orders, and clearing backlogs.

 

[Admiral Beez]

In my opinion, no. We need to be expanding 415 production, taking more orders, and clearing backlogs.

More is better, for certain. Now that the smaller Viking Aircraft has taken over the tooling from Bombardier I don't expect production of new aircraft to exceed a few units annually. It's now produced in Calgary, remained the DHC-515 Firefighter, near you? Perhaps a co-manufacturer is needed.

 

[ThomasP]

Is de Havilland not big enough? I remember reading that they were building a new plant in Wheatland County, Alberta, but I do ot know how far along it is.

 

[Admiral Beez]

Is de Havilland not big enough?

De Havilland Canada today is not the DHC of our youth, but is a trademark holding company that bought up the rights to old DHC and Canadair aircraft abandoned by Bombardier, and now owned by Viking Air. Viking's main business is repair and spares support for existing Beavers, Otters, Buffaloes, and most recently Dash 7s.

They are expanding to produce new versions of the classic DHC and Canadair types. And who wouldn't want a new-built Beaver? Viking even bid for the RCAF's new SAR aircraft. But I expect their production of new but niche DHC-415 water bombers would be perhaps a quarter dozen a year.

In 2022, Viking/DHC announced that they'd received their first orders for the new water bombers, and that they expected delivery of the 23rd unit by 2030. That's about three units annually.

De Havilland Aircraft of Canada Limited Launches DHC-515 Firefighter - De Havilland Canada

dehavilland.com

But don't get me wrong, I am immensely pleased and proud to see these iconic Canadian aircraft like the Beaver, Caribou and water bomber gain a new future, especially far away from the swamp that is Quebec.

 

[Admiral Beez]

In my opinion, no.

Though I do remember seeing the massive Martin Mars Water Bomber and thinking that's one big firefighting plane.


View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9JYByw7hHR4

Though it would need larger lakes to operate from.

 

[Crimea_River]

Is de Havilland not big enough? I remember reading that they were building a new plant in Wheatland County, Alberta, but I do ot know how far along it is.

Haven't broken ground yet, though word is they will start later this year.

 

[Thumpalumpacus]

The larger the aerial platform is, the fewer can be built. Fewer planes cannot be in as many places, meaning that in the 16-24 hours it may take to deploy, any fire may have metastasized.

More numerous, smaller assets able to provide prompt response can not only fight more fires in more places, but may also be able to prevent small fires from exploding into disasters.

 

[cvairwerks]

One other thing, the bigger the tanker, the larger the area required for operations. The DC-10 works great for large fires in relatively flat lands, but sucks try to work canyon or ridge fires. One of the videos I've seen about the -10 is that it needs a large airport and it takes 45-60 minutes to turn around. Pushing amphibs to that size, now you are needing lakes that have flat approaches to open and deeper water for several miles. I think the Mars tanker needed something like 5 miles of open water greater than 10' deep to make a scoop run.

 

[Crimea_River]

That's why I said more 415s (515s) is the way to go. We have lakes in abundance where forrest fires are prevalent and the aircraft can get into pretty tight areas. Bigger, land based tankers would need to work hundreds of miles from capable airports and I can't see how they would be efficient . Larger amphibians would also be less effective in mountainous terrain.

 

[GreenKnight121]

More numerous smaller aircraft can also operate from more numerous permanent operating bases, thus reducing flight times to fires.

The CL-415's water load of 6,137 L (1,350 imp gal; 1,621 US gal) is sufficient to make each drop effective.

I would put the max useful amphibian water load of maybe 2.500 US gallons - possibly closer to 2,000 US gallons - in terms of aircraft size (and thus open water requirements) required for that load.

 

[Admiral Beez]

More numerous smaller aircraft can also operate from more numerous permanent operating bases, thus reducing flight times to fires.

True, and I agree the CL-415 is about the ideal size for small lake ops. That said, a Spruce Goose or even Blohm & Voss BV 238 sized water bomber would be something to see. Then there's the planned Liberty Lifter.

Now back to reality. What do we think about jet water bombers like the Beriev Be-200?

Beriev water bomber jet seaplane in Portugal - Seaplane International

The Russian Emergencies Ministry sent two Beriev Be-200 Altair water bomber jet seaplane upon Portugal’s request to assist it in battling forest fires last week. One Beriev Be-200 amphibian sustained minor damage when it hit the tops of trees while…

www.seaplaneinternational.com

 

[GTX]

I think the idea of many smaller ones is probably better to go with. It also depends upon location. For instance, here in Australia, helicopters play a bigger role with bambi buckets and similar since we don't necessarily have lakes etc for flying boat bombers.

I also think there is an increasing role for drone versions so as to remove the risk for crews.

 

[SaparotRob]

Any B-36s lying around?

 

[EwenS]

BAe 146 / Avro RJ anyone?

Whisperjet waterbomber - Royal Aeronautical Society

www.aerosociety.com

View: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=EkEPI5_IQdo

And a near miss in one. Watch the ridge line!!

View: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=O2KCYhULWZ8

 

[GreenKnight121]

BAe 146 / Avro RJ anyone?

And a near miss in one. Watch the ridge line!!

View: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=O2KCYhULWZ8

Target fixation leading to loss of situational awareness.