I see my friend. Just was surprised because you have never sent a such alert. Well ... it is worth to read the labels , n'est-ce pas ?
**** DONE: GB-40 1/72 Ju87 D/G - Heavy Hitters III
- Thread starter parsifal
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I see my friend. Just was surprised because you have never sent a such alert. Well ... it is worth to read the labels , n'est-ce pas ?
Crimea_River
Marshal
Looks like this. It comes with a spray pump but I use a paint brush.
- Thread starter
- #224
parsifal
Colonel
Hi Wurger
I don't think you understood what I meant by two dimensional versus three dimensional.I meant two dimensional as in length x width. Decals can only ever be two dimensional
My reference to three dimensional is referencing length x height x width. Have a look at that pic of the 1/48th build I posted. his "grates" have a height component because hes built the grates out of something other than flat card. Being 1/48th scale he has more options than me working in 1/72
So now, to try and guess what length height and width for each of the three bars that comprise the grate. In 1:1 scale im estimating the overall grate is about 20cm wide. Each bar of the three bar assembly is about 2-3 cm wide and roughly 0.5-1cm high. We don't need to worry about length just yet. Converting those estimated dimensions to 1/72 scale, the overall grate assembly needs to be 2.8mm wide. Each bar of the grate needs to be a maximum of 0.15mm high and 0.28 mm wide.
My ersatz grate is 2mm wide. The individual bars are 0.1mm wide and about 0.05 mm high. Considerably off target, but within an acceptable margin . They are visible because ive painted those bars slightly different colur to the background, and because the bars stand up away from the surface of the wing. they have depth.
ive made decals before. Its a bit tricky because the ink from most inkjet printers is not volour fast. I do better with laser prints, but even so, hand made decals are harder to work than store bought ones, And this decal is quitr small. Its certainly do-able, but probably more than one go to get it right I think.
If I use a decal, in scale, I will not have any height to mess about with. I can mess about with the spacing of the bars and the width of the bars, to a point. If I make them too fat and chunky they will look as dumb as the decals ive just ditched. If the individual bars were drawn at 0.1mm, but retained a similar (perhaps slightly darker hue) as the background wings, I don't think they would be visible on the wing, because they have no depth. That was certainly what happened when I tested the concept on card. They are a tiny element, and of similar colour to the background they are being attached to Im not going to colourise the decals some outlandish colour like red. They have to be a similar colour to the wing itself. The minute I do that they will because not visible because of their lack of depth and small size.
I don't think you understood what I meant by two dimensional versus three dimensional.I meant two dimensional as in length x width. Decals can only ever be two dimensional
My reference to three dimensional is referencing length x height x width. Have a look at that pic of the 1/48th build I posted. his "grates" have a height component because hes built the grates out of something other than flat card. Being 1/48th scale he has more options than me working in 1/72
So now, to try and guess what length height and width for each of the three bars that comprise the grate. In 1:1 scale im estimating the overall grate is about 20cm wide. Each bar of the three bar assembly is about 2-3 cm wide and roughly 0.5-1cm high. We don't need to worry about length just yet. Converting those estimated dimensions to 1/72 scale, the overall grate assembly needs to be 2.8mm wide. Each bar of the grate needs to be a maximum of 0.15mm high and 0.28 mm wide.
My ersatz grate is 2mm wide. The individual bars are 0.1mm wide and about 0.05 mm high. Considerably off target, but within an acceptable margin . They are visible because ive painted those bars slightly different colur to the background, and because the bars stand up away from the surface of the wing. they have depth.
ive made decals before. Its a bit tricky because the ink from most inkjet printers is not volour fast. I do better with laser prints, but even so, hand made decals are harder to work than store bought ones, And this decal is quitr small. Its certainly do-able, but probably more than one go to get it right I think.
If I use a decal, in scale, I will not have any height to mess about with. I can mess about with the spacing of the bars and the width of the bars, to a point. If I make them too fat and chunky they will look as dumb as the decals ive just ditched. If the individual bars were drawn at 0.1mm, but retained a similar (perhaps slightly darker hue) as the background wings, I don't think they would be visible on the wing, because they have no depth. That was certainly what happened when I tested the concept on card. They are a tiny element, and of similar colour to the background they are being attached to Im not going to colourise the decals some outlandish colour like red. They have to be a similar colour to the wing itself. The minute I do that they will because not visible because of their lack of depth and small size.
- Thread starter
- #225
parsifal
Colonel
I don't need to use debonder to remove the PE grates, or if I do, it will be less than one drop. Ive never experiences softened plastic, but it does usually play havoc with the paint where I apply it, especially if I use too much of it.
Im still not persuaded to even take the existing grates off, except where I have added them where they should not be.
Im still not persuaded to even take the existing grates off, except where I have added them where they should not be.
I grasped that Michael.
I'm afraid that is not true. In all scales when the decals are cut out of the decal sheet to limit the clear background around, there is always a "step" between the decal marking edge and the model surface.
Please believe me that if you apply the clear coat and then the little bit darker colour of the top , the decal will be thick enough to replicate these bars and noticable very well. Also I can agree that printed decals aren't the best for that purpose.. The alternative material for the bars, you may use, could be a masking tape or an aluminium foil. In the case of the alu foil you would have to use the CA glue for sticking them. So again it is not the best solution if a model has alrady been painted. But as I had mentioned that you would do what you wanted.
PS. Sometimes it is not needed to make such small details for 1/72 and smaller scales. It is enough to make the impression that these are there. Therefore the Revell added the non-slip walkways as the decals. although not correct entirely.
BTW.. the diagram I attached on the previous page , was made with the general dimensons I got from the Academy kits for the G-1 and G-2 Stuka of the 1/72 scale. I have adjusted the width of the stripes to ability of cutting. But the stripes can be more narrow. Let's say , 0,4mm. So the space between them can be 0.9mm.
Regarding the thickenss of the bars.. here is a shot of them. I think it is enough large to notice that the thickness of the bars is almost the same as the metal skin of the wing and fuselage. I would say that's about 1,5-2mm. In 1/72 scale it is about 0,02-0,03mm. IMHO the painted decal will be enough with its thickess ( height) for that.
I'm afraid that is not true. In all scales when the decals are cut out of the decal sheet to limit the clear background around, there is always a "step" between the decal marking edge and the model surface.
Please believe me that if you apply the clear coat and then the little bit darker colour of the top , the decal will be thick enough to replicate these bars and noticable very well. Also I can agree that printed decals aren't the best for that purpose.. The alternative material for the bars, you may use, could be a masking tape or an aluminium foil. In the case of the alu foil you would have to use the CA glue for sticking them. So again it is not the best solution if a model has alrady been painted. But as I had mentioned that you would do what you wanted.
PS. Sometimes it is not needed to make such small details for 1/72 and smaller scales. It is enough to make the impression that these are there. Therefore the Revell added the non-slip walkways as the decals. although not correct entirely.
BTW.. the diagram I attached on the previous page , was made with the general dimensons I got from the Academy kits for the G-1 and G-2 Stuka of the 1/72 scale. I have adjusted the width of the stripes to ability of cutting. But the stripes can be more narrow. Let's say , 0,4mm. So the space between them can be 0.9mm.
Regarding the thickenss of the bars.. here is a shot of them. I think it is enough large to notice that the thickness of the bars is almost the same as the metal skin of the wing and fuselage. I would say that's about 1,5-2mm. In 1/72 scale it is about 0,02-0,03mm. IMHO the painted decal will be enough with its thickess ( height) for that.
Crimea_River
Marshal
Good discussion. Perspective is important when dealing with scale as it's a common mistake to replicate too much. While I'm by no means innocent of this, I find that, even for me in 1/48 scale, it's almost inevitable that things end up being too big. There is an art to be perfected in finding a compromise that suggests the presence of something rather than to replicate it exactly.
Airframes
Benevolens Magister
I agree.
It is sometimes impossible to achieve scale 'sizing' of some items, particularly in smaller scales, due to the physical limitations of the materials being used.
Personally, for the ribbed walkway, I would use either thin strips of Tamiya type masking tape, or 'Sellotape' (Scotch tape in the USA), which can be laid in place, and then sealed with a paint coat and final clear coat.
It is sometimes impossible to achieve scale 'sizing' of some items, particularly in smaller scales, due to the physical limitations of the materials being used.
Personally, for the ribbed walkway, I would use either thin strips of Tamiya type masking tape, or 'Sellotape' (Scotch tape in the USA), which can be laid in place, and then sealed with a paint coat and final clear coat.
- Thread starter
- #229
parsifal
Colonel
That is different to what I had previously concluded, so I will try a decal . The PE has been removed and repainted the area that the PE was previously placed. The sky didn't fall in when I did that. I used less than a drop of debonder to make sure the grate came away cleanly from the plastic. To remake absolutely sure the surface was clean and smooth I applied a light sand to the area using 2000 grade paper. Masked around the area and the repaint was uneveentful
If the image you posted is 1/72 scale, its exceptional work. Well beyond anything I could handle. It looks like 1:1 scale to me. Not that it matters. The metal strips are a fraction darker than the skin of the wings, and the edges of the strips are gain definition from the minute gap between the strip and the wing skin. What also gives those strips visibility are the rivets.They are a raised detail, but alo considerably darker than their surroundings.
I cant hope to replicate any of that at 1/72 scale. The best i can do i think is exaggerrate a bit the difference in colour, making the strip a dark grey almost. The reason I removed the PE eventually was the realisation that the raised detail I had previously concluded was there in fact was not so raised after all. I was colour and contrast that mostly makes the strips visible
You have outdone yourself Wurger, and truly have fantastic knowledge and patience.
We will see if I can pull off such a subtle detail
If the image you posted is 1/72 scale, its exceptional work. Well beyond anything I could handle. It looks like 1:1 scale to me. Not that it matters. The metal strips are a fraction darker than the skin of the wings, and the edges of the strips are gain definition from the minute gap between the strip and the wing skin. What also gives those strips visibility are the rivets.They are a raised detail, but alo considerably darker than their surroundings.
I cant hope to replicate any of that at 1/72 scale. The best i can do i think is exaggerrate a bit the difference in colour, making the strip a dark grey almost. The reason I removed the PE eventually was the realisation that the raised detail I had previously concluded was there in fact was not so raised after all. I was colour and contrast that mostly makes the strips visible
You have outdone yourself Wurger, and truly have fantastic knowledge and patience.
We will see if I can pull off such a subtle detail
- Thread starter
- #230
parsifal
Colonel
This has been one hell of a learning curve for me. I appreciate everyones comments and hope ive not upset anyone too much
fubar57
General
Smoke and mirrors, we're just trying to create an hint of something
Micheal. THX for your very kind words. But the pic is of the real plane I found via the net. However it is possible to make the stripes with the rivets but you will need to use either the alu foil or thin plastic ones. And certainly the CA glue. The rivets can be shaped by pressing with a hypodermic needle of the correct diameter. But it requires a lot of patience and may be not worth all this.
I would suggest taking a piece of the decal paper and then applying the clear coat. Then when dried , apply one or two layers of the a little bit darker green colour you used for the model tops. Use for that a brush. The next step is to apply some of silver (weathering ) with a fine brush on the all surface. Do it randomly. This will simulate the scratches and the metalic shade. Of course you may apply the silver over the clear coat and then use the darker green for "colouring /weathering" of the entire surface.. A such made decal has to be dried before cutting the stripes. Please remember about painting of the enough large piece of the paper in order to get longer stripes. If possible of course. In the way you can obtain three stripes of the same width using only one longer. ALso please make the strips a couple more just in case if something goes wrong. Thanks to that you may remove the wrong strip with the water and attach the another one. Having applied all the stripes just apply some of the clear coat with the airbrush to prevent the decals against unsticking. Just like all other decal markings are protected with the final coat.
PS. while cutting the thin stripes please don't do that quickly. Do it quite slow. In the way you will avoid of curling the strip up what happens very often when the razor blade or scalpel moving is too fast.
I would suggest taking a piece of the decal paper and then applying the clear coat. Then when dried , apply one or two layers of the a little bit darker green colour you used for the model tops. Use for that a brush. The next step is to apply some of silver (weathering ) with a fine brush on the all surface. Do it randomly. This will simulate the scratches and the metalic shade. Of course you may apply the silver over the clear coat and then use the darker green for "colouring /weathering" of the entire surface.. A such made decal has to be dried before cutting the stripes. Please remember about painting of the enough large piece of the paper in order to get longer stripes. If possible of course. In the way you can obtain three stripes of the same width using only one longer. ALso please make the strips a couple more just in case if something goes wrong. Thanks to that you may remove the wrong strip with the water and attach the another one. Having applied all the stripes just apply some of the clear coat with the airbrush to prevent the decals against unsticking. Just like all other decal markings are protected with the final coat.
PS. while cutting the thin stripes please don't do that quickly. Do it quite slow. In the way you will avoid of curling the strip up what happens very often when the razor blade or scalpel moving is too fast.
Crimea_River
Marshal
This is my go-to product for stuff like this, though it may be too bulky for 1/72. It's Basically aluminum foil with adhesive on the back. No CA necessary.
Airframes
Benevolens Magister
Yep, that's a good alternative, an can be found at hardware outlets, in various grades, measured in microns. It will be found with the heating, ventilating and plumbing materials.
Once in place, and painted and sealed with the final clear coat, it should stick like sh*t to a blanket, and very doubtful if it will lift off with time.
Once in place, and painted and sealed with the final clear coat, it should stick like sh*t to a blanket, and very doubtful if it will lift off with time.
Crimea_River
Marshal
...and you can scratch the paint off it to make it look worn.
Crimea_River
Marshal
True but you can buy a roll of the stuff for less than the price of 3 bottles of paint and it will last a lifetime.
- Thread starter
- #239
parsifal
Colonel
I like the idea of the alfoil tape.
I spent a couple of hours this morning trying to make decals but no luck. I suspect it is the age of the paper im trying to use. Anyway, the lines just kept breaking apart.
Ive switched my efforts to simply painting the grates onto the model I will use Vallejo RLM 71 Dark Grey and then paint the rivets on using a superfine brush that I have, probably paint the rivets black I think .
Its not ideal, but I think it can work, so ive started the masking process. The grate assemblies overall as currently masked are 4,2mm which is overscale, but acceptable in my opinion. Im not sure if my masking is straight enough, but I will find out soon enough
Now is the time to speak if this is a bad idea.
I spent a couple of hours this morning trying to make decals but no luck. I suspect it is the age of the paper im trying to use. Anyway, the lines just kept breaking apart.
Ive switched my efforts to simply painting the grates onto the model I will use Vallejo RLM 71 Dark Grey and then paint the rivets on using a superfine brush that I have, probably paint the rivets black I think .
Its not ideal, but I think it can work, so ive started the masking process. The grate assemblies overall as currently masked are 4,2mm which is overscale, but acceptable in my opinion. Im not sure if my masking is straight enough, but I will find out soon enough
Now is the time to speak if this is a bad idea.
I was thinking about the way you used as well. But painting of the almost done model is always quite risky. Just like using the CA. But it should work as well. 
Also you could use the masking tape , cut off the stripes , stick them to the wing and then paint.
Cracking of decals isn't caused by old paper but incorrect paint. What kind of paint did you use? Have you applied the clear gloss coat firstly?
Also you could use the masking tape , cut off the stripes , stick them to the wing and then paint.Cracking of decals isn't caused by old paper but incorrect paint. What kind of paint did you use? Have you applied the clear gloss coat firstly?
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