Easy or hard to fly? How to define it?

pbehn said:

Humans are strange critters, after mastering all the things you have to master in driving a car the thought of a few controls being placed somewhere else spooks some of them.

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But it's so much more than just the controls being in different places! The sight picture is different, the "escape reflex direction" is reversed, you don't trust your distance/speed/aspect judgement, and you live in fear that a sudden reflexive reaction will be wrong. That's why my girlfriend won't allow my Honda-riding reflexes anywhere near her beloved BSA.
I found sheparding pilots through the CFI course that flying from the right seat, for most of them, was as much of a challenge as was demonstrating CFI caliber maneuvers while explaining them. Many of them had trouble judging glide path and landing flare from the right seat until the course was more than half over.
Cheers,
Wes

PS: When I started my CFI training, I was already "ambi-seat-trous" as I had done a stint as chairman of the Membership Committee in the Navy Flying Club. This meant I put prospective members in the left seat and let them get a feel for flying before they plunked their money down. Initiation fees were non refundable, and airsickness or claustrophobia were best discovered ahead of time.

XBe02Drvr said:

But it's so much more than just the controls being in different places! The sight picture is different the "escape reflex direction" is reversed, you don't trust your distance/speed/aspect judgement, and you live in fear that a sudden reflexive reaction will be wrong. That's why my girlfriend won't allow my Honda-riding reflexes anywhere near her beloved BSA.
I found sheparding pilots through the CFI course that flying from the right seat, for most of them, was as much of a challenge as was demonstrating CFI caliber maneuvers while explaining them.
Cheers,
Wes

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But XBe when you first flew you had no "escape reflex direction" at all. Changing things that you have learned around is harder in some cases than it was learning it in the first place. I used to ride a Triumph T120V and a Suzuki GT 380 at the same time, it just takes a time to make the adjustment and a bit more time to make the adjustment at any time without it being a problem. I tried reversing the gear change lever when racing but had to get a gear linkage to keep the normal gear change sequence, I just could crash though the gears fast enough with "up for down" changing. Oh and caught my foot under the gear lever trying to brake and change gear while in a corner, very, very distracting.

pbehn said:

Changing things that you have learned around is harder in some cases than it was learning it in the first place.

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MOST CASES, my friend!

pbehn said:

Oh and caught my foot under the gear lever trying to brake and change gear while in a corner, very, very distracting!

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You bet! Congratulations on survival.
Cheers,
Wes

XBe02Drvr said:

You bet! Congratulations on survival.
Cheers,
Wes

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I was using race tyres, the normal rules of riding don't apply, it wasn't a question of survival, I was in the wrong freaking gear coming out of the corner, changing down to the correct one while everyone else was changing up having pulled away or passed me.

XBe02Drvr said:

MOST CASES, my friend!

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In terms of switching sides in driving, the only thing that changes is the gear lever and your position in the car. Your position and vision is compromised when driving on the "wrong side" but in fact driving an English car on European motorways is the very best option. Whilst the Europeans were going further and further to the left to see ahead I was sat a little to the right of the lane and could see what all cars were doing up to 6 cars ahead. I German colleague of mine thought I had ESP because I always started slowing down before the car in front started braking. Since he took the Pi$$ out of my car I just let him believe what he believed.

XBe02Drvr said:

How do you keep your head on straight in a Moth with the prop turning wrong way and torque (such as it is) pulling on the wrong foot?? And how do you look down at that floor mounted compass without getting vertigo??

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Funny, because of the wind on your face, you don't need to use the ball - if the breeze is even on both sides of your face, you're in balance!

Both aircraft I regularly fly have 'backwards' turning propellers. so its those damned American things that catch me out! And you never use the compass, I fly 'IFR' (I follow roads, rivers, rail-roads)

pbehn said:

The brain has some strange reactions to shocking events and ways of coping with a crisis. Events that ensure massive amounts of adrenaline are in the blood shut down almost any sensation or negative reactions.

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That sounds about right, my normal anxiety levels usually die in adrenaline-surge situations...

When the effects wear off then conventional reactions start to come back.

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Sounds about right...

The most dangerous time for someone adrift in water (provided they are healthy and afloat) is between sighting a rescue boat and being pulled aboard.

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I would have never thought that would be the case, but when swimming there is a tendency to relax a bit as you near the other side and realize there's something you can grab hold of if you're exhausted (I still keep going until I reach the other side though -- it's not over until you can actually grab the other side and yank yourself up).

pbehn said:

But XBe when you first flew you had no "escape reflex direction" at all.

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Right you are. That was a reference to driving on the wrong side of the car on the wrong side of the road. Sorry if it was confusing.
Cheers,
Wes

XBe02Drvr said:

Right you are. That was a reference to driving on the wrong side of the car on the wrong side of the road. Sorry if it was confusing.
Cheers,
Wes

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You just have to start off driving as if you just passed your test, never drink drive even with one beer and be extra careful on Sunday mornings, when there are no cars on the road it is easy just to set off on the wrong side. Only the position of the driver and gear leaver are different,

Zipper730 said:

I would have never thought that would be the case, but when swimming there is a tendency to relax a bit as you near the other side and realize there's something you can grab hold of if you're exhausted (I still keep going until I reach the other side though -- it's not over until you can actually grab the other side and yank yourself up).

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It is though, on city marathons the number of people who collapse just before the finish is affected by how long the run in to the finish line is. The mind and body start shutting down when they see the end.

pbehn said:

It is though, on city marathons the number of people who collapse just before the finish is affected by how long the run in to the finish line is. The mind and body start shutting down when they see the end.

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The way I've found to short-circuit this (as I said there is a tendency to relax a bit as you near the other side of the pool after a bunch of laps) is to basically set the goal to having to be able to get up and be standing up at the end of the pool as a goal.

With running I guess you'd have to mentally set the goal 100-400 yards beyond the finish line (same strategy)

One more gyro question for the time being: What was the first gyroscopic instrument that could be caged?

BiffF15 said:

Gents,

How about a criteria list of flying "qualities" and "pilot training"? I would list the following:

Training:
Thorough / in depth enough for expected needs
For fighter guys, having someone with recentcy of combat experience teaching in both advanced trainers and RTU (replacement training unit, AKA fighter school)
Theater Top Off Program (AKA Clobber College)

Aircraft:
Ease of operation (controls / switches / knobs) fall readily to hand and are not cumbersome or task loading (SA draining)
Standardized layout of flight and engine instruments (all were pseudo bad at this)
Flying qualities commensurate with expected use (this is a big one: does the plane advertise or warn of a limit being approached, buffet prior to stall, indications ammo is low
Known performance (good and bad traits), and how it compares to the enemy A/C (Sun Tzu anyone)

Tactics:
Has the training and A/C combo been blended to get the most out of the plane / flight / squadron / wing?
If not successful is there a feedback process to ID shortfalls and rectify them?

Just a beginning.

Spears or additions?

Cheers,
Biff

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Biff - I would be pretty cheeky to comment on the above, but will offer a couple of thoughts for AAF WWII fighter pilot training - IFR and Gunnery training were probably the two qualities harder to instill, as necessary, for specifically the ETO and Pacific conditions. Training Command was accountable for accident rates in CONUS and Link Trainers, while better than nothing - was not tailored to simulate any particular aircraft like our simulators of the past 30 years. ETO Takeoffs and formation assembly was frequently achieved under limited visibility and flight leaders were responsible for navigating the climb out with wingman focused on his wing tip identification lights. Ditto for navigating through T-storms when no other choice was available.

When my father was 354FS Ops Officer shortly after arriving in ETO, he set up an Instrument training program that was used by all the pilots in 355th - both inbound as a 'qual check' and recurring monthly time in Link Trainer. The 355th lost One pilot/51 attributed to weather/instrument conditions after he set it up as part of a tailored Clobber College program.

My experience is so laughable in contrast to yours (or any other professional pilot), but I recall the vast difference between RNAV capability I had in a V-35/A-36 vs Needle/Ball in my limited experience in 51 and AT-6 and 172. When my father taught me to fly, he made me use Needle and Ball for approach training in clear daylight, then let me peek on final. It paid off big time when I lost RNAV 10 miles out from San Antonio in 10/10 and airport below minimums. I was a 'little nervous' but talked in well by the tower. I can only imagine UK in winter or summer storms on a frequent basis.

My one comment on my own experience was that AT-6 was squirrely in a moderate cross wind landing although a 51 could ground loop if not paying attention. A Spitfire pilot who served with the 355th told me that nothing was better than a Spit in a cross wind - like running in on tracks.

drgondog said:

noting was better than a Spit in a cross wind - like running in on tracks.

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Yeah, you could run in on any track you chose on those big grass fields!
Cheers,
Wes

What was the first time the electrically driven vertical gyro indicator used (i.e. the one that had a ball with degrees on it, that was fed information from a gyro separate from the indicator that went through a controlled precession as as the attitude went very high)