Evasive tactics for TBF Avengers

[mikewint]

NJACO, thanks
Just think, these guys knew the odds, they knew they were probably toast and went anyway.
what was that quote, Uncommon courage was a common virtue?

 

[renrich]

I believe that the USN found out that the VTs were effective if they had fighter cover against a CAP like they had at Coral Sea. The TBF had much more performance than the TBD and was much more survivable but was still very vulnerable to unopposed fighter attack. The IJN VTs such as the Kate were effective although still vulnerable to fighters because they had more performance than the TBD and had much better torpedos. The USN actually, early in the war, tried SBDs as anti-VTs but they did not have enough performance edge to be effective. I would suspect that TBFs in formation, like SBDs, were a fairly tough nut to crack for a CAP. They had the powered turret with the single 50 BMG and the 30 cal tunnel gun. An interesting aside is that Blackie Sherrod, a rather famous sportswriter for the "Dallas Morning News" was a gunner on a TBF who apparently saw a good deal of action and I believe Paul Newman, the actor, was also but don't know if he saw action.

 

[renrich]

I believe that the USN found out that the VTs were effective if they had fighter cover against a CAP like they had at Coral Sea. The TBF had much more performance than the TBD and was much more survivable but was still very vulnerable to unopposed fighter attack. The IJN VTs such as the Kate were effective although still vulnerable to fighters because they had more performance than the TBD and had much better torpedos. The USN actually, early in the war, tried SBDs as anti-VTs but they did not have enough performance edge to be effective. I would suspect that TBFs in formation, like SBDs, were a fairly tough nut to crack for a CAP. They had the powered turret with the single 50 BMG and the 30 cal tunnel gun. An interesting aside is that Blackie Sherrod, a rather famous sportswriter for the "Dallas Morning News" was a gunner on a TBF who apparently saw a good deal of action and I believe Paul Newman, the actor, was also but don't know if he saw action.

 

[hawkeye2an]

Just finished reading the book "The Unknown Battle of Midway". Part of the problem at Midway was the torpedoes themselves. Although we did score some hits at Coral Sea, the American torpedo at the beginning of the war was a BAD weapon. Not one torpedo exploded on the side of a Japanese ship during the battle of Midway. One could say that our torpedos did more to HELP the Japanese at this battle as part of one unexploded torpedo was used as a LIFERAFT by some Japanese sailors !! It was also an eye opener to learn that only one VT-8 pilot (Cmdr Waldron) had ever dropped a live torpedo before the battle.
Brave men going out under these circumstasnces.

 

[hawkeye2an]

Found this on Wiki:

Re: Paul Newman
He later flew from aircraft carriers as a turret gunner in an Avenger torpedo bomber. As a radioman-gunner, he served aboard the USS Bunker Hill during the Battle of Okinawa in the spring of 1945. He was ordered to the ship with a draft of replacements shortly before the Okinawa campaign, but by a fluke of war, was held back because his pilot had an ear infection. The rest of his detail died.

 

[shiro_amada_jp]

These are all very interesting. Thanks for your inputs!

I do have a couple of questions further: TBF Avengers were typically armed with bombs and torpedoes. Were there actual incidents in the war that they had to use rockets against targets? (Similar to what F4U Corsairs used for close air support during the Battle of Okinawa). Had they used rockets, would they have been effective against ships?

 

[seesul]

Found this on Wiki:

Re: Paul Newman
He later flew from aircraft carriers as a turret gunner in an Avenger torpedo bomber. As a radioman-gunner, he served aboard the USS Bunker Hill during the Battle of Okinawa in the spring of 1945. He was ordered to the ship with a draft of replacements shortly before the Okinawa campaign, but by a fluke of war, was held back because his pilot had an ear infection. The rest of his detail died.

You´re right, I´ve never known that! Thanks for this info!
Some more info Actor Paul Newman was decorated WWII sailor - Navy News, news from Iraq - Navy Times

 

[Nikademus]

i am not sure how the TBs were knocked out at midway, CAP or AA. the CAP got to them first probably as far out as 20mi, but then that low slow run at low level into broadsides and AA from every other support ship had to be devastating. the weave came last
indeed the TBs got their licks in and i think i did mention that later on they sank a carrier and a battleship. the carrier Ryujo in the eastern Solomons, at Santa Cruz the CAP shot down all the TBFs, and the battleship Hiei initially hit by dive bombers but the TBFs scored with several torpedos until the japs scuttled her.
those TBF pilots have my deepest admiration.

A number of factors contributed to what would become the IJN's best CAP performance of the war in terms of planes shot down. (approx 51 bombers). The TB's as mentioned, went in unescorted. The squadrons also attacked sequencially and could be targeted in isolation. The weather was good that day allowing the CAP to be alerted in time to make dedicated attacks. The TBD's were unarmored (but would still require cannon to ensure a quick takeout) and were slow while saddled with a torpedo which in turn required a slow approach if they were to (theoretically) function correctly.

IIRC, the biggest factor that led to decreased carrier bomber losses, besides proper escort of course, was that the crews learned that the best defense was to close ranks when attacked by Zero elements. Alone, a TBF, TBD or SBD was highly vulnerable to an A6M....but as with B-17 bomber boxes, get a good number in a closed formation with mutually supporting rear firing guns and it became a thornier issue. Biggest single kill success A6M's scored as a case in point against carrier SBD's was during Coral Sea where 5 fell while performing "Anti TB CAP". This of course required the SBD's to operate in isolation and while they proved capable of taking on B5N's.....they were not so capable taking on or warding off A6M's. Thach weave was IIRC, only employed on two occasions during 42, both by VF elements.

 

[timshatz]

Nick has a good point. The group was way more effective at protecting itself than as a single. Send in each group in isolation, without escort and then have the TBs seperate from the group to make their individual torpedo runs and it's a turket shoot.

One other point about the Japanese Cap (Combat Air Patrol). It didn't operate along the same lines as the USN Cap. Whereas the USN would direct fighters toward targets it had on Radar, out of a pilot's sight, the Japanese Cap worked more organically. It would fly in small groups in various quadrants and wait for something to happen. Usually, that would be somebody spotting an incoming strike or, more likely, spotting AAA rounds exploding to mark the incoming enemy strike (Japanese would fire rounds to mark an incoming strike even if it was out of range, color was noted as white by American Pilots). What this meant is the Japanese Cap had the job of figuring out where to go and what to do, there was no central director as such. Being typical fighter pilots, when they saw a target, they went after it.

What this meant is the Japanese Cap at Midway, all the Japanese Cap in view, went after the strike with nobody covering other sectors. That meant the US Torpedo plans weren't dealing with a limited number of fighters, they were pretty much dealing with all the Japanese Cap from four carriers. In some cases, there were so many fighters they got in each other's way (having to que up to make a run) but it also meant that spreading out to go in singly and drop, at low speed, was a suicide as the number of fighters attacking the would exceed the number of TBs and the TBs had no escort (or in the one case it did, it was too busy trying to survive to do anything).

It doubtless affected the number of bombers shot down. Just too many fighters.