F4U F6F payload
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Almost twice the power (R-2800 vs. V-1710), plus big wings give them huge advantage vs. P-39 -40.
The R-2800 aboard of P-47 have had to pull in the air the heavy airframe, so payload suffered. The wing was thinner, better suited for high speed then to carry the really big payload.
The P-47N was as good as those Navy fighters, IIRC.
The R-2800 aboard of P-47 have had to pull in the air the heavy airframe, so payload suffered. The wing was thinner, better suited for high speed then to carry the really big payload.
The P-47N was as good as those Navy fighters, IIRC.
Tomo has a good point there. The Navy birds had to have a lot of lift in their wings as they needed to go relatively slowly in the landing phase on a carrier. Army planes typically went for the highest possible speed as a first step. Navy had speed in a mix of different things that were important.
I think the second gen fighters (of which the F6 and F4U were members) could all carry a large load a short distance. 2 1000lbs or 2 500lbs, gas and rockets was not impossible load hanging off the frame. But it greatly affected the performance.
I think the second gen fighters (of which the F6 and F4U were members) could all carry a large load a short distance. 2 1000lbs or 2 500lbs, gas and rockets was not impossible load hanging off the frame. But it greatly affected the performance.
davebender
1st Lieutenant
That pretty well sums it up.
Does anyone have historical data comparing weapons delivery accuracy for WWII era fighter-bombers?
Does anyone have historical data comparing weapons delivery accuracy for WWII era fighter-bombers?
Shortround6
Major General
Some of the P-47 "D"s could lift 2500lbs which isn't too shabby. Of course having 3000ft or more of Concrete to play with in some cases didn't hurt.
See: http://www.zenoswarbirdvideos.com/Images/P-47/47TOCL.gif
And notice the temperature corrections. A 35% increase in take off distance for 35 Celsius/95 Fahrenheit day.
See: http://www.zenoswarbirdvideos.com/Images/P-47/47TOCL.gif
And notice the temperature corrections. A 35% increase in take off distance for 35 Celsius/95 Fahrenheit day.
davebender
1st Lieutenant
IL-2M3 Wing Loading
WW2 Warbirds: the Ilyushin Il-2 Shturmovik - Frans Bonn
Up to 2,205lb bomb load.
Wing loading: 34 lb/ sq ft @ maximum weight.
Ju-87D1 Wing Loading
WW2 Warbirds: the Junkers Ju 87 Stuka - Frans Bonn
Up to 3,968lbs bomb load.
Wing loading: 42 lb/ sq ft @ maximum weight.
P47D-22 Wing Loading
WW2 Warbirds: the Republic P-47 Thunderbolt - Frans Bonn
Wing loading: 54 lb/sq ft @ maximum weight.
How accurate was P-47 weapons delivery, with a wing loading that high?
WW2 Warbirds: the Ilyushin Il-2 Shturmovik - Frans Bonn
Up to 2,205lb bomb load.
Wing loading: 34 lb/ sq ft @ maximum weight.
Ju-87D1 Wing Loading
WW2 Warbirds: the Junkers Ju 87 Stuka - Frans Bonn
Up to 3,968lbs bomb load.
Wing loading: 42 lb/ sq ft @ maximum weight.
P47D-22 Wing Loading
WW2 Warbirds: the Republic P-47 Thunderbolt - Frans Bonn
Wing loading: 54 lb/sq ft @ maximum weight.
How accurate was P-47 weapons delivery, with a wing loading that high?
michaelmaltby
Colonel
"... How accurate was P-47 weapons delivery, with a wing loading that high?"
Obviously, it wasn't a dive bomber ...
but as good as the Il-2 I'm guessing, .
MM
Obviously, it wasn't a dive bomber ...
but as good as the Il-2 I'm guessing, .MM
How far could each of the above a/c carry such loads?
davebender
1st Lieutenant
I have my doubts.
The lower wing loading of the IL-2 provides better low speed maneuverability. That makes it easier to put gunfire, rockets and bombs on ground targets. The Ju-87 improves accuracy by dive bombing. The P-47 has neither of these advantages when attacking ground targets.
The lower wing loading of the IL-2 provides better low speed maneuverability. That makes it easier to put gunfire, rockets and bombs on ground targets. The Ju-87 improves accuracy by dive bombing. The P-47 has neither of these advantages when attacking ground targets.
Shortround6
Major General
Curtiss Helldiver had a wing loading of 40.7lb/sq ft
Bristol Blenheim had a wing loading of 28.8lb/sq ft
Fairey Battle had a wing loading of 25.6lb/sq ft
Considering the last two it is a wonder the Germans managed to get across the Bridges at Sedan.
At low altitude instead of dive bombing a higher wing loading means a smoother ride, less gust response.
If you are going so slow as to rely on "low speed maneuverability" you are also a target for any gun pointed up into the sky.
Corsairs, with a wing loading of 46.7lb/sq ft, seemed to have a pretty good reputation for accuracy in ground support.
All wing loadings calculated from data at Frans Bonn's web site.
Bristol Blenheim had a wing loading of 28.8lb/sq ft
Fairey Battle had a wing loading of 25.6lb/sq ft
Considering the last two it is a wonder the Germans managed to get across the Bridges at Sedan.
At low altitude instead of dive bombing a higher wing loading means a smoother ride, less gust response.
If you are going so slow as to rely on "low speed maneuverability" you are also a target for any gun pointed up into the sky.
Corsairs, with a wing loading of 46.7lb/sq ft, seemed to have a pretty good reputation for accuracy in ground support.
All wing loadings calculated from data at Frans Bonn's web site.
beaupower32
Tech Sergeant
Here is a P-47N loaded to the gills. Looks like two 1000 punders, one 500 pounder, ten rockets, plus most likely full fuel load, with a grand weight of over 20,000 lbs. Very impressive I must say.
davebender
1st Lieutenant
The Bristol Blenheim and Fairey Battle had the potential to bomb accurately. But bombing tactics, aircrew training and enemy opposition still matter.
davebender
1st Lieutenant
JU-87 Stuka, Hawker Typhoon, P-47 Fighter bombers
If this is correct then we have data for comparison of bombing accuracy.
Accuracy with no flak.
P-47. 30 bombs required to score a hit. 50% within 180 feet of target (360 foot circle).
Ju-87B. 25% success in hitting the target for average pilots.
Ju-88A. 50% of bomb load within a 50 meter circle.
If I were a soldier desperately in need of CAS the P-47 would not be my first choice. Better to place 500lbs on target then to miss with 2,500lbs (or place it accidently on friendly units).
If this is correct then we have data for comparison of bombing accuracy.
Accuracy with no flak.
P-47. 30 bombs required to score a hit. 50% within 180 feet of target (360 foot circle).
Ju-87B. 25% success in hitting the target for average pilots.
Ju-88A. 50% of bomb load within a 50 meter circle.
If I were a soldier desperately in need of CAS the P-47 would not be my first choice. Better to place 500lbs on target then to miss with 2,500lbs (or place it accidently on friendly units).
Shortround6
Major General
Nice try but you still don't have a valid comparison.
Were German results from a test range ?
Or do you think a practice range and a combat zone are the same even if there is no flak in the combat zone?
What is the definition of "target" in each case?
Dive bombers are much more vulnerable to light Flak guns than low level fighter bombers.
billswagger
Airman 1st Class
- 256
- Mar 12, 2009
I remember reading the release altitude for dive bombing in a P-47 was 3000ft.
It would suggest that dive bombing was easier said than done.
Still, the P-47 was regarded as a better dive bomber because of its stability and ease of trim while in the dive.
I've never heard of the F4U or F6F having significantly better load outs than the P-47, but they were better than P-40s and P-39s. I would owe most of that to the power of the engine, all three airframes pulling over 2000hp.
Fact is, in order for any of those planes to take advantage of their max load capacity they would need much more runway. I would be surprised to see the F4U getting in the air with a full load from a carrier deck.
It would suggest that dive bombing was easier said than done.
Still, the P-47 was regarded as a better dive bomber because of its stability and ease of trim while in the dive.
I've never heard of the F4U or F6F having significantly better load outs than the P-47, but they were better than P-40s and P-39s. I would owe most of that to the power of the engine, all three airframes pulling over 2000hp.
Fact is, in order for any of those planes to take advantage of their max load capacity they would need much more runway. I would be surprised to see the F4U getting in the air with a full load from a carrier deck.
davebender
1st Lieutenant
The P47 had compressibility problems in a high speed dive. And it had no dive brakes to slow the dive. Which makes me think it would be suicide for a P47 to attack ground targets at a steep dive angle.
I suspect the A-36 dive bomber was better at putting steel on ground targets then the better known F4U and P-47 fighter-bombers. But for some reason the U.S. Army Air Corps chose not to continue development. They could have added survivability enhancements like dual radiators with individual cut off valves (similiar to Me-109) and additional cockpit armor. Increased aircraft weight would be offset by more powerful versions of the Allison V-1710 engine. Poor performance at high altitude (for the Allison engine) would not be an issue as this is a CAS aircraft.
I suspect the A-36 dive bomber was better at putting steel on ground targets then the better known F4U and P-47 fighter-bombers. But for some reason the U.S. Army Air Corps chose not to continue development. They could have added survivability enhancements like dual radiators with individual cut off valves (similiar to Me-109) and additional cockpit armor. Increased aircraft weight would be offset by more powerful versions of the Allison V-1710 engine. Poor performance at high altitude (for the Allison engine) would not be an issue as this is a CAS aircraft.
Think the USAAF was playing the numbers game. Cheap airplane, plenty of pilots, why worry?
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davebender
1st Lieutenant
That's fine for the USN. However I don't think the WWII era U.S. Army would consider large scale use of a naval design. Relations between the two military service branches were just too bad. Which is a shame because the F4U was a great aircraft and in production by late 1942.
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