F6F-3 RAF - Hasegawa Kit.No. S015:2300

Discussion in 'Painting Questions, Tutorials and Guidebooks' started by twinpilot, Jun 20, 2012.

  1. twinpilot

    twinpilot New Member

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    Hi to all,
    is there anyone who coulkd give me a hint? At the moment i am close to final airbrush my F6F-3 Hellcat in colour scheme of the RAF or maybe Royal Navy or FAA - Hasegawa doesn´t say that clearly in the manual.

    Hasegawa recommends "Dark Sea Gray" + "Medium Sea Gray" for top/side-camouflage - nothing more :( (Belly Duck Egg Green - Humbrol 23)

    After long research i did not find such a colour scheme. Did that really exist?

    Which colours match to "Dark Sea Gray"? I found out it could be FS 36099 - maybe Revell #69

    And for "Medium Sea Gray"? FS 36173, 36176, 36231, 36270 - Revell 77 or 79 or Humbrol 140

    Is there anyone who can help please?
     
  2. Wurger

    Wurger Siggy Master
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    These colours you need for FAA F6F-3 were.... the Extra-Dark Sea Grey and the Dark Slate Grey on tops. The Sky S-type for undersides.

    Also please check these threads..

    http://www.ww2aircraft.net/forum/5-...-squadron-hms-emperor-23113.html?daysprune=-1
    http://www.ww2aircraft.net/forum/5-...mk-i-jv-131-no-800-sqn-hms-emperor-24239.html


    The Dark Slate Grey - FS34096 ..... Humbrol102, Gunze H36, Testors/ModelMaster 1571 or RAF Dark Slate Gray - Testors/ Model Master II Enamel Flat RAF Dark Slate Grey no.2056

    The Extra Dark Sea Grey - FS36118 .... Humbrol27, Gunze H333, Testors/ModelMaster 1723 or Testors Model Master II Enamel RAF Dark Sea Grey no.2059.

    The Sky S-type - FS34583 .... Humbrol90, Gunze H74, Testors/ModelMaster 1723 or Testors Model Master II Enamel RAF Sky Type-S ANA610 no.2049.
     
  3. Wurger

    Wurger Siggy Master
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  4. Wurger

    Wurger Siggy Master
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    I have never heard about a such camo scheme for RAF/FAA Hellcats.
     
  5. Airframes

    Airframes Benevolens Magister

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    I'm not aware of the RAF ever using the Hellcat. The FAA (which is the Royal Navy) used them of course, as shown by Wurger's photos, and they were in the colour schemes described, used mainly in the PTO, but also in northern waters.
     
  6. twinpilot

    twinpilot New Member

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    many thanks to wurger + airframes - you helped me a huge lot !
    Of course i found F6F-Pics but no coloured ones. Also i didn´t know the the RAF never ever flew the F6F.

    The camo-recommendation was from Hasegawa - Dark Sea + Medium Sea-Gray, Belly Duck Egg Green.

    Unfortunately belly is already brushed in Hubrol 23 - and sky is quiet brighter. So i had to apply several layers which might kill all details..

    @wurger - you also never heard anbout that camo - but i will be not the only one to build the FAA-version of that kit. Maybe Hasegawa mixed that up when prining the assembly manual.

    Do you know any FAA camo-combination with DuckEggGreen belly that was being used for the F6F-3?

    Many thanks
     
  7. A4K

    A4K Well-Known Member

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    Great info guys!

    Re the DSG/ MSG/ DEG scheme, they possibly misinterpreted B/W photos with the post war colours worn by aircraft like the Sea fury, Firefly, Gannet and Attacker, etc.
     
  8. Crimea_River

    Crimea_River Well-Known Member

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    There are a few colour pics buried in the threads Wojtek mentioned:
     

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  9. Wurger

    Wurger Siggy Master
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    #9 Wurger, Jun 21, 2012
    Last edited: Jun 21, 2012
    You'r welcome Mate. Glad we could help. To answer your questions... First of all ,there is a mistake in the name of the Belly Duck Egg Green. A such one colour didn't exist, I'm afraid. The correct name is the Duck Egg Blue. I'm not sure if it is your typo or the Hasegawa has a problem with their English language.
    The Humbrol 23 Duck Egg Blue paint is suggested for painting of undersides of early RAF planes before the Sky S-typ was introduced. However some guys might say there wasn't a such one used oficially and both names are of the same paint..... The difference between the DEB and Sky S-type is in their tonality though. The DEB was of cream-colored-blue one while the Sky was of green hue. It is a problem with their recognition in B&W pictures. However the DEB seems to be a little bit lighter. But when FAA started to use Hellcats Mk.I ( at the beginning of the Summer of 1943 ) the Sky S-type was in usage and the DEB was "a history" rather. The Sky lighter tonality might have been a result of fading because of sea water and weather conditions during usage of F6F-3s over seas. But I agree with A4K's post that it might be the misinterpretation of post war camo of other FAA planes. According to my knowledge all late British Hellcats Mk.II wore the standard US Navy solid dark blue camo colour overall painted with the ANA623 Glossy Sea Blue.

    However Hellcats used at the Far East TO looked like these in pictures below. But it was still the EDSG/DSG/Sky S type camo scheme methinks.

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]
     
  10. Wurger

    Wurger Siggy Master
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    #10 Wurger, Jun 21, 2012
    Last edited: Jun 21, 2012
    And here a quotation of Scott Spencer's article about the FAA colours ....


    Sea Camouflage, Scheme 1A

    This scheme came from a revision to Scheme 1, which was first introduced in 1936. It was found that several of the colors from Scheme 1 were just not appropriate and did not have the desired effects. They found that a compromise mix of the pigments would produce some very nice shades of gray-greens. Therefore, in the latter part of 1937, changes were made to the camouflage colors. A Dark Slate Gray (FS 34096: Methuen #28 [E-F]3) and Light Slate Gray (FS 34159: Methuen #26E3) were introduced first. Next came a replacement for the aircraft sides and bottom surfaces: This new color was called Sky Gray (FS 36463: Methuen #22C2). These three colors became the operational colors of the Fleet Air Arm and most aircraft manufacturers based their production colors on these mixes in 1938-39.

    When war came and began to spread into the Mediterranean, the British felt the colors being used presented too much of a contrast and the generally 'blue' conditions in the Med presented a camouflage problem. Around mid-1940, to help with this problem, FAA reconnaissance aircraft were allowed to paint their bottoms in Sky Blue (FS 35622: Methuen # [23-24]A2) for daytime ops, while those flying at night used flat black. When Azure Blue (FS 35231: Methuen #21B5) was developed, the aircraft were allowed to use this instead. Further development of another bottom color resulted in the production of Sky Type 'S' (FS 34424), but this was a priority color for the RAF and very few FAA aircraft obtained this color until March 1941.

    Temperate Sea Scheme

    In the latter part of 1940, all the references to 'Sea Camouflage' were dropped. This order, from the Ministry of Defence, was the first to make 'all' FAA aircraft change to the Temperate Sea Scheme, no matter if the aircraft were ship-based or land-based. It also standardized the markings, demarcation lines, etc., for the FAA's aircraft. This order was applicable to all aircraft, no matter where they were allocated or which theatre they might have been operating in.

    The standardized colors chosen were Extra Dark Sea Gray (FS 36099), a dark blue-gray color, and Dark Slate Gray (FS 34096), an oily dull gray-green, for the upper surfaces. The lower surfaces were painted in Sky (FS 34424). These new colors became standard in March of 1941.

    As I have mentioned in my article about colors and markings of the East Indies and British Pacific Fleets, the US built lend-lease aircraft (Wildcat, Hellcat, Avenger, and Corsair) were delivered to the Fleet Air Arm in the US paint equivalent of British standards.* For a listing of several British W.W.II paint standards, see the link below. The Hellcats and Corsairs of the BPF were delivered in the standard US Navy color of Gloss Sea Blue - ANA 623 (FS 15042).

    http://ipmsstockholm.org/colorcharts/stuff_eng_colorcharts_uk.htm
     
  11. Wurger

    Wurger Siggy Master
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    A nice pic found via the Internet...

    [​IMG]
     
  12. Wurger

    Wurger Siggy Master
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    #12 Wurger, Jun 21, 2012
    Last edited: Jun 21, 2012
    And finally I have found the reason for appearing of the mistake.

    Grumman factory didn't use the ANA equivalents for paints but used these of Dupont. All Grumman planes being sent to FAA ( Wildcats, Hellcats ) were painted with Dupont equivalents for the FAA colours. So the Extra Dark Sea Gray ( DuPont 71-19324 ) and Dark Slate Gray ( DuPont 71-19323 or 71-9323 ) on tops. However, the Dupont EDSG almost matches the FAA colour but the Dupont Dark Slate Grey was a little bit lighter than the origin FAA DSG. The Duck Egg Blue ( DuPont 71-021 ) was on undersides. The Dupont 71-021 is known as the ANA 610 Sky Grey ( FS36463 ) as well. It is exactly the same paint but it's named differently in Grumman's documents (papers). The tonality of the paint is affirmed by colour pictures of that time and samples found on a Martlet from Yeovilton during its renovation. The paint on undersides is much lighter and blue in tonality than the Sky S-type that was a grey-greenish paint. Here two pictures I found via the net. On the starboard wing we can notice the light blue-grey colour of the Sky Grey ( The Dupont Duck Egg Blue) and patches of the Sky S-type used for repairs during the war. The difference can be seen clearly.

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    To sum up...

    Generally it can be said that the ANA equivalent for the Dupont Extra Dark Sea Gray ( 71-19324 ) might be the ANA603 Sea Grey - the naval equivalent for the Natural Grey paint. For the Dupont Dark Slate Gray ( 71-19323 or 71-9323 ) - ANA 613 Olive Drab. And for the Dupont Duck Egg Blue ( 71-021 ) - ANA610 Sky Grey. It seems that the Dupont Duck Egg Blue ( 71-021 ) - ANA610 Sky Grey doesn't have anything in common with the RAF Duck Egg Blue. Just the name only. But the Humbrol 23 seems to be a good basis for painting and weathering of FAA Hellcat undersides because of its blue hue.

    I hope this makes all it clear.
     
  13. Crimea_River

    Crimea_River Well-Known Member

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    Wow Wojtek! You really opened the floodgates there!
     
  14. Wurger

    Wurger Siggy Master
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    Oh... I can swim.... :lol:
     
  15. A4K

    A4K Well-Known Member

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    Great stuff Wojtku!

    For me too, a small 'almost OOB' run of 3 1:72 Hellcats lined up for next week, USN F6F-3 and-5, and probably an FAA bird...
     
  16. twinpilot

    twinpilot New Member

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    #16 twinpilot, Jun 23, 2012
    Last edited: Jun 23, 2012
    Hello and many thanks to all !!!

    Great pictures - great description - perfect knowledge of history - Wow. I think this is the most professional forum i ever visited. Sorry - english is not my mother tounge so i propably cannot express myself in a correct way.

    Reading your posts and the history i decided in first instance for Revell 69 (shall equal Hu 134) which for my feeling comes close to FS 36099. But it seemed to be quiet greenish (indeed!)
    Then i brushed the rest with green Humbrol 30 which for my feeling comes close to FS 34096.

    I didn´t like the result at all.

    Now a very special 1 million thanks to Wurger - that picture above you found - purely great. I decided to paint after that.

    Instead of Humbrol green 30 i used Revell brown 381 but that is a bit too intense and dark compared to the colours to be seen on that excellent picture. But the tone matches. Many thanks - now i do have an idea for the pattern on top. Hasegawa didn´t show a drawing with the pattern - that also is very negativ !

    Also the dark grey Rev. 69 i used on the surface is somehow darker than on your picture.

    I thought that a carefully brushed tiny touch of white (Rev. 301) on the brown and a tiny touch of a silvery light grey (Re. 57) could make the the camo a bit softer/smoother and coming closer to your picture. What do you think?



    The belly (bottom - sorry) shall remain in DEB (i learned) - that was to much to start again.

    Another point is that Hasegawa recommended the Zinc-chromate green FS 34151 for Interior of landing gear and machine gun hatch a.s.o. and for the cockpit FS 33814 - a very yellowisch Zinc chromate colour. After checking quiet some pictures now i found out it´s propably exactly vice versa (as they say in the film "clue" with Tim Curry: too late. That part is finished.). Also the locater pins of that model are not correctly situated.
     

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  17. Airframes

    Airframes Benevolens Magister

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    I think perhaps your original choice of colours was nearer that required. It should definitely not have a brown tone, or the green, for a Fleet Air Arm aircraft. The greys used were distinct in their tones, one being a dark grey, whilst the other had a very distinct green tone, hence the term 'Slate' in its title. When seen together, they often appeared to be almost one colour, affected by the lighting angles.
    The upper surface colours shown on your model look more like the RAF Dark Green and Dark Earth. The colour picture shown in post #11, although good for showing the pattern, has been affected by the original printing process, and by transfer to the computer monitor.;the tones are not correct for the actual scheme. Those in the first colour pic in post #8 are what you need to aim for.
     
  18. twinpilot

    twinpilot New Member

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    #18 twinpilot, Jun 24, 2012
    Last edited: Jun 24, 2012
    Hello to all

    First i want to say that this forum is maybe the most professional i ever visited until now. Could it be some of you also are pilots?

    English is not my mother tounge and i might express myself wrongly – so pls excuse.
    Sorry – i didn´t know the RAF never flew the F6F and that FAA = Royal Navy as well as Duck Egg Green – so described in the Hasegawa manual – not exists and is named Duck Egg Blue.

    Especially many thanks for excellent description, historical background and the coloured pix to Wurger. At university that was a 110% !!!

    Despite one of the col-pix shows a graphic with F6F in grey+oliv i go for the inflight pic you posted

    First i wanted to colour after your recommendation FS 36099 – which seems to match Revell 69 and FS 34096 which seems to match Humbrol 30. But i was quiet unhappy with the result and so i coloured after your colour-pic of the inflight F6F. For the brown i used Rev 381.


    Unfortunately the colours i used are too dark or too intense.

    So my question is whether you would advice my to following:
    I thought to brush a slight touch of white Rev 301 on the brown and a slight touch of silverish grey Rev 57 on the dark grey to make the camo smoother/softer?

    Or i start again and use either your recommended
    Dupont Extra Dark Sea Gray ( 71-19324 ) might be the ANA603 Sea Grey
    Dupont Dark Slate Gray ( 71-19323 or 71-9323 ) - ANA 613 Olive Drab

    Olive Drab – Humbrol 155 (but on the col-pic it´s definetely a kind of brown)
    Sea Grey – Humbrol 27
    Could you confirm these colours?

    And one more question: the landing gear – was it coloured in white? Or would you also colour it in DEB?

    Very bad in this Hasegawa Kit is not only the wrong camo colours but also that there is no pattern for the camo. The locator pins are situated not so perfect and they propably mixed up the two Zinc Oxyde they recommended. The light yellowish green (close to FS 34666) should be for interior gun hatch and gear housing – the dark one (close to FS 34193) for the cockpit. I unfortunately believed what the recommended :evil: but now it´s too late. Also the guns are too short so only the inner one will exceed the wing (parts positioned properly after manual).

    Now i am quiet curious for your recommendation.

    Wish you nice day

    P.S.: next will be a Revell P40E (RAF) or Revell ME262night
     
  19. twinpilot

    twinpilot New Member

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    here 3 pics of the ongoing work
     

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  20. Wurger

    Wurger Siggy Master
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    Unfortunately it's my fault I didn't post my comment to the picture. I agree with Terry's opinion in the post #17. The dark colour there hasn't been dark green but it was the Extra Dark Sea Grey one. Also the brown looking one was the Dark Slate Grey paint. So I do appologize.

    And I repeat again...

    The Extra Dark Sea Grey - FS36118 .... Humbrol27 - Revell 79
    The Dark Slate Grey - FS34096 ..... Humbrol102 - Revell 364
    The Sky S-type - FS34583 .... Humbrol90 - Revell 59 or Humbrol23 - Revell, no equivalent.

    Additionally.... many years ago the Humbrol offered Authentic Colours set. These paints were numbered EDSG - HB7, the DSG - HB8, the Sky S-type - HB5
    Because these colours aren't offered by them any longer it is suggested to use

    the EDSG HB7 - Humbrol 123 - Revell , no equivalent.
    the DSG HB8 - Humbrol 224 - Revell 45
    The Sky HB5 - Humbrol 90 - Revell 59

    To sum up.... I noticed you tried to find out what Revell colours you have to use for the FAA camo scheme for Hellcats. So you can use Revell 79 for the Extra Dark Sea Grey, the Revell 364 or 45 for the Dark Slate Grey and the Revell 59 for the Sky one. Now all should be clear.

    Here you are a picture of my old Hellcat model with the FAA camo scheme applied with Humbrols. I made the model many years ago when the info on the FAA planes was quite limited here. Therefore a few mistakes can be found.

    [​IMG]


    As far as these wheel bays and legs are concerned it seeems that these were of the same colour like undersides. The cockpit interior might have been of the Yellow Zic chromate FS33814 but it could have been of the Interior Green FS34151 as well.
     
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