Fascist France

[Admiral Beez]

History of far-right movements in France - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

"Far right leagues organised major riots on 6 February 1934. The groups did not coordinate their efforts and the riots were suppressed by the police and military. They also attempted a coup against the Popular Front government, elected in 1936, leading to arrests in 1937, ordered by Interior Minister Marx Dormoy, during which the police seized explosives and military weapons, including anti-tank guns."

What if fascism in France, aligned with Franco and Mussolini takes over government in 1937? What does the French air force and military look like? What of Hitler and Germany's plans for France?

 

[SaparotRob]

That's above my pay grade.

 

[Thumpalumpacus]

History of far-right movements in France - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

"Far right leagues organised major riots on 6 February 1934. The groups did not coordinate their efforts and the riots were suppressed by the police and military. They also attempted a coup against the Popular Front government, elected in 1936, leading to arrests in 1937, ordered by Interior Minister Marx Dormoy, during which the police seized explosives and military weapons, including anti-tank guns."

What if fascism in France, aligned with Franco and Mussolini takes over government in 1937? What does the French air force and military look like? What of Hitler and Germany's plans for France?

I don't know how French governance managed the military industry of the time, but I'd guess that the Marine Nationale is going to continue completing ships on the stocks, and design bureaus will continue designing tanks and aircraft.

I suspect the biggest change -- though it may not be much, I don't know -- will be in their army. One of the reasons the French army lost so badly in 1940 was that, as a conscript army, the troops were drawn from widely-divergent political views, many of which did not agree with the government of the time on this or that policy. I would imagine that a fascist government might well work to better homogenize the ranks, or at least purge them of dissentients?

I can't be sure of this as my knowledge of French history is paltry. Perhaps F Frog could give us a better picture?

 

[Admiral Beez]

I'd be interested to see how the Franco-Thai war goes.

 

[yulzari]

The conscript army was a leavening of short term socialists into the conservative army. The fascists would probably move to a professional army avoiding the socialists to keep the army on side.

The corollary would be a smaller but better equipped army.

However a civil war is also very possible. Something like Spain. But that is a whole other 'what if'.

 

[Admiral Beez]

The conscript army was a leavening of short term socialists into the conservative army. The fascists would probably move to a professional army avoiding the socialists to keep the army on side.

The corollary would be a smaller but better equipped army.

However a civil war is also very possible. Something like Spain. But that is a whole other 'what if'.

Could we consider Napoleon's France a fascist state? A return to that may unite the French people.

 

[Frog]

I don't know how French governance managed the military industry of the time, but I'd guess that the Marine Nationale is going to continue completing ships on the stocks, and design bureaus will continue designing tanks and aircraft.

I suspect the biggest change -- though it may not be much, I don't know -- will be in their army. One of the reasons the French army lost so badly in 1940 was that, as a conscript army, the troops were drawn from widely-divergent political views, many of which did not agree with the government of the time on this or that policy. I would imagine that a fascist government might well work to better homogenize the ranks, or at least purge them of dissentients?

I can't be sure of this as my knowledge of French history is paltry. Perhaps F Frog could give us a better picture?

In my opinion, the fact that this was a conscription based army had no real had no real relevance : all major armies were conscript based.
The difference was that Germany was a militarized state whose youth had been endoctrinated for a great part.
Combined this with an organization that was lacking and rigid, and France was not single in this situation.

 

[Thumpalumpacus]

In my opinion, the fact that this was a conscription based army had no real had no real relevance : all major armies were conscript based.
The difference was that Germany was a militarized state whose youth had been endoctrinated for a great part.
Combined this with an organization that was lacking and rigid, and France was not single in this situation.

Right, the problem, I think, was that French society was so divided. Conscription seemed to me to introduce those divisions into the armed forces.

 

[MIflyer]

Note that the Socialists in France before WW2, admiring the USSR and observing the Non-Aggression Pact between the USSR and Germany, thought that France should not fight to oppose the invasion of Poland. How much of France's disorganization and ill preparation for the war can be attributed to that.

And note that a famous French socialist stated that the Americans were a bigger threat to France than were the Germans. And if you think that is incredible, know that he said that not in 1938 but in May 1944.

 

[yulzari]

The left v right division in a culture that idolises revolution was ingrained into French culture. Perhaps less so now that populism conflates left sympathy with right politics.

I have probably said this before somewhere on the forum but my Great Grandfather was the Mayor, twice, of a small town in the Cevennes. There were regular fights around the public laundry washing places which were next to the Catholic Church. The right wing catholics lived inside the old town walls whilst the left wing socialistprotestants lived outside where the new Mairie (town hall) was.Great Grandfather built a new public laundry washing place outside the Mairie so that the socialists could do their washing away from the conservatives in the town and the fighting ceased. This would have been in the 1880s.

These issues were deeply ingrained and the habit of public obedience was moderated by revolutionary culture and polarisation. Not unlike tribal football or religious allegiances.

 

[Shortround6]

It seems to an outsider, that the French in the 1920s and 30s changed governments only slight less often than they changed their underwear.
Even consecutive governments on the same side of the spectrum couldn't agree on the amount of defense spending or where it should be spent.
Changing ministers could also change the direction/s the Navy or Army or Air Force could go in.

I have no idea if a French Fascist had the same goals as a German Fascist or the same as an Italian Fascist.
Perhaps the French and Italian fascists would be fighting each other over the African colonies vs allying with each other?

 

[bf109xxl]

In France, even the fascists (at least many - including the most radical ones) were former communists (e.g., Doriot). Socialists and communists were too strong in France, fascist and right-wing nationalist parties had little chance.

 

[MIflyer]

In France, even the fascists (at least many - including the most radical ones) were former communists (e.g., Doriot).

Mussolini originally was a communist. But note that the difference between fascists and communists actually is quite small. Both believe in strict control of everything by the government, the fascists being "right" of the communists in that they believed private industry working at the direction of the government rather than actual government ownership of all industries. It was the difference between having Tractor Factory No. 12 building Yak-3's and and having Junkers building Ju88's. Both fascists and communists are far, far to the Left the way we do things in the USA. The Soviet definition of Fascist was essentially "people who act like us but are not us." They never used the term Fascist to apply to the Western democracies. I think that at their core socialists are fascist in many respects, because their socioeconomic concepts are also based on government control.

In the words of Alexander Solzhenitsyn, "Communism is militant mediocrity." Socialism is merely milder mediocrity, and the National Socialists were Socialists.

 

[bf109xxl]

Mussolini originally was a communist.

He was a socialist.

But note that the difference between fascists and communists actually is quite small.

I don't want to be the devil's advocate, but if by "communism" we mean exclusively a system like Stalin's USSR, then this approach can hardly be called scientific.

Both believe in strict control of everything by the government, the fascists being "right" of the communists in that they believed private industry working at the direction of the government rather than actual government ownership of all industries.

This difference is already too serious to be ignored.

It was the difference between having Tractor Factory No. 12 building Yak-3's and and having Junkers building Ju88's.

The differences between fascism and communism are not simply a matter of property and economics.

Both fascists and communists are far, far to the Left the way we do things in the USA.

Really? How about Roosevelt's New Deal?

The Soviet definition of Fascist was essentially "people who act like us but are not us."

For the Soviets the most important thing about fascism was anti-communism, most often "fascism" was used as a swear word by Soviet propaganda, but still even the Soviets had a slightly more complex definition of fascism.

They never used the term Fascist to apply to the Western democracies.

Depends on what one means by "Western democracies". Was the Smetona's regime in Lithuania or Horthy's regime in Hungary an example of a Western democracy?

I think that at their core socialists are fascist in many respects, because their socioeconomic concepts are also based on government control.

That's an oversimplified view. In addition to state control, fascism is characterized by a whole other set of important features. There is an extensive literature on the subject, and I see no point in discussing it within the scope of this forum.
I only noted that in France the "left" (socialists+communists) was too strong to consider alternatives like fascists taking power.

In the words of Alexander Solzhenitsyn, "Communism is militant mediocrity." Socialism is merely milder mediocrity, and the National Socialists were Socialists.

I have great reverence for Solzhenitsyn as a Russian writer - an author of literary works, many of which I have read (I especially liked his early short stories), but not as a publicist.

 

[yulzari]

He was a socialist.

In the Great War Mussolini was a British agent whose handler was Lord Hore-Belisha. Ironically the money Britain spent on Mussolini's newspaper to advocate Italy remaining in the war helped fund Mussolini's political career.

Equally ironically Leslie Hore-Belisha was of a Jewish family and became a Liberal MP for Plymouth for 22 years and knighted. Succeeded as MP by the later Labour leader Michael Foot whose memorial is in Freedom Fields Park at the end of my road.

Itself the memorial to the successful Parliamentary Civil War defence of Plymouth against the Royalist army. In which half the pre civil war number of the population of Plymouth died. Parliament maintaining Plymouth from the sea. Had the Royalist army taken Freedom Fields then they would have been able to bombard the city into submission. Annually re enactors gather before the Lord Mayor there and fire salutes in memorial to the defenders.

I apologise for the digression.

 

[Howard Gibson]

History of far-right movements in France - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

"Far right leagues organised major riots on 6 February 1934. The groups did not coordinate their efforts and the riots were suppressed by the police and military. They also attempted a coup against the Popular Front government, elected in 1936, leading to arrests in 1937, ordered by Interior Minister Marx Dormoy, during which the police seized explosives and military weapons, including anti-tank guns."

What if fascism in France, aligned with Franco and Mussolini takes over government in 1937? What does the French air force and military look like? What of Hitler and Germany's plans for France?

I firmly believe that a Fascist is a member of an Italian political party. The Fascists, Nazis, Phalangists, Ustaše, and the other right-wring parties all were nationalist and authoritarian. They differed on all sorts of other issues. Let's name the French right-wing party after Maurice Chevalier, or maybe Groucho Marx.

Is there any reason the the Chevalier/Marx party would buy into the German racial superiority myth? This is the primary reason for invading eastern Europe and Russia. An attack on Poland might still be seen as a threat to French sovereignty. Hitler made it clear that France was Germany's enemy. In 1939, Poland was a dictatorship, hostile to both left-wing and right wing extremists. They may still have been people Chevalier/Marxists would be comfortable with.

If France refuses to back up Poland, Britain probably walks away too. What happens when Germany starts the holocaust?

After 1933, Britain and France both were re-arming in response to Germany's re-arming. Would French right-wing authoritarians be comfortable with Germany? In an alternate 1940, would authoritarian French generals do anything other than try to re-fight World War_I?

The Morane-Saulnier M.S.406 perhaps was more obsolete than the Hawker Hurricane at the start of the war. Both aircraft were crushed during the Blitzkrieg. If the M.S.406 had fought in the Battle of Britain at the extreme limits of the Bf109's range, its cannon armament would have done serious damage to German bombers. In dealing with Nazis early in the first half of the war, it really sucked to not have a body of water between you and the Germans. The English channel got the job done.

Would the Chevalier/Marxists have gotten the Dewoitine D.520s into service earlier?

 

[SaparotRob]

I have always been and will always be a Groucho Marxist.