FKFS/Kamm 48-cylinder engine survivor?

[brianwnz]

Has anyone ever heard of the Wunibald Kamm (FKFS) 48-cyl. engine being shipped to the UK after WWII? Anyone know if it made it out of the scrapyard? Read this old report on turbine development by BMW (CIOS-XXVI-30) recently, which states it was shipped to the UK after the war:

Photo from another file - this is the 48-cylinder engine in (I assume) the guise it would have been shipped......look familiar to anyone in the UK?

TIA,

Brian W

 

[WJPearce]

Hello Brian,

I believe the engine pictured in your post is the Motor-Luftstrahltriebwerk (motorjet, a piston-powered turbine) designed by Max A. Müller in the early 1940s. Some work on the engine was done by Junkers, but then switched to Heinkel.

Info on the Kamm-designed FKFS Gruppen-Flugmotor in linked below. Kamm went to the US after WWII, and I have no knowledge of what happened to the FKFS engine.
FKFS Gruppen-Flugmotor A, C, and D

 

[Deleted member 68059]

Has anyone ever heard of the Wunibald Kamm (FKFS) 48-cyl. engine being shipped to the UK after WWII? Anyone know if it made it out of the scrapyard? Read this old report on turbine development by BMW (CIOS-XXVI-30) recently, which states it was shipped to the UK after the war:
View attachment 582045
View attachment 582046
Photo from another file - this is the 48-cylinder engine in (I assume) the guise it would have been shipped......look familiar to anyone in the UK?

TIA,

Brian W

I also have no firm answers on that, I would make the following guesses:

1) Expecially having been air-cooled, I would bet that Bristol would have been involved in an inspection, possibly at the RAE.

Therefore I would approach R.R.H.T. (RR bought Bristol) or F.A.S.T. - (which will have to wait until after lockdown.

2) I would also bet that after they were done with it, that it made its way to the USA, and ended up at
Wright-Field or Freeman-Field bases.

For those your best bet is submitting an enquiry to the Smithsonian archives in washington-dc.

Annoyingly the USAF archives at Dayton, dont permit research by non-us residents.

 

[brianwnz]

Hello Brian,

I believe the engine pictured in your post is the Motor-Luftstrahltriebwerk (motorjet, a piston-powered turbine) designed by Max A. Müller in the early 1940s. Some work on the engine was done by Junkers, but then switched to Heinkel.

Info on the Kamm-designed FKFS Gruppen-Flugmotor in linked below. Kamm went to the US after WWII, and I have no knowledge of what happened to the FKFS engine.
FKFS Gruppen-Flugmotor A, C, and D

Thanks Bill..... and you're right, the picture I've put up is nothing like the Kamm 48-cylinder engine; I think I was suffering a little brain fade there. Although I never thought until you pointed this out that Heinkel or Junkers ever finished an engine for their ML.......And this looks more finished than a mock-up; rather like their 16-cyl. X-engine? Do you know if it was ever finished; even just the piston-engine part?
The report I posted a snippet of specifically talks of the 48-cyl. engine however, but I have also very recently seen a conflicting report stating the engine was taken by either US or French forces....... perhaps we'll never know after all this time. I have just today found this rather poor copy of a German text which has quite a bit about the Kamm engine - does anyone have a better copy?

 

[WJPearce]

Hello Brian,

I don't know much about the engine. The image you posted appears on page 266 in "Junkers Flugtriebwerke" by Reinhard Müller. The caption basically says that it was a mockup. Some components were tested, but not a full engine. The project was cancelled in 1942.

I have not seen the report you posted, but it does seem to have a lot of info on the FKFS engine and some other interesting projects. Unfortunately, its quality makes it difficult for a non-German speaker like me to translate. But, maybe a better copy will show up. Thank for posting it.

 

[brianwnz]

Hello Brian,

I don't know much about the engine. The image you posted appears on page 266 in "Junkers Flugtriebwerke" by Reinhard Müller. The caption basically says that it was a mockup. Some components were tested, but not a full engine. The project was cancelled in 1942.

I have not seen the report you posted, but it does seem to have a lot of info on the FKFS engine and some other interesting projects. Unfortunately, its quality makes it difficult for a non-German speaker like me to translate. But, maybe a better copy will show up. Thank for posting it.

Thanks again Bill,

Your website has a lot about many of the diesel aircraft engines (and other engines) that I am fascinated by, and I really appreciate you sharing that info with the world, so the least I can do is try and do the same. Someone out there somewhere has an original copy I'm sure - and my German is also limited to Google translate, lol.

Thanks for the info regarding the mock-up - they sure made some good quality looking mock-ups back then! And I will try and get a copy of that book for my own interest. There is one more report I have that does mention the three ML turbines that Heinkel proposed, and thankfully better quality; please find this attached also, in case you're interested.

Regards,

Brian W

 

[WJPearce]

Thanks for the report, and I'm glad you like my site. I do what I can to keep the old stuff alive. There is a lot more info out there, but finding it and compiling it is the difficult part. I cannot wait to see what Calum Douglas has uncovered and included in his book "The Secret Horsepower Race." A lot of real research has gone into it.

For fun, I have attached patents for Max Müller's "Combined Recoil Drive" engine. They are the same patent; one is German and the other US.

 

[Deleted member 68059]

I have just today found this rather poor copy of a German text which has quite a bit about the Kamm engine - does anyone have a better copy?

Hi Brian,
I dont have a copy of that specific article, but from the "look" - I`d say its almost certainly a journal article in one of the "Jahrbuch der Deutchen Akademie der Luftfahrtforschung" bound volumes (which I have a few volumes of, but not I think one containing that article). These volumes are available at certain archives so I think it ought to be possible to find a proper copy of it eventually.

I have a few brief bits on the Gruppenmotor in my book, but very little as it was not envisaged as a fighter engine. I have photos which are clearly more advanced than a mockup, and are obviously proper machined parts. I`d have to check again as to if it actually ran in full-scale form.

EDIT:

I`ve got a Volkenrode translation - it appears upon inspection this morning.

As per Kamm`s article, it appears that the text on the OldMachinePress is accurate on this first point - in that this "A" Gruppenmotor was formed of cylinders
from the Hirth Hm512. Kamm says it says all paid for by Prof. Messerschmitt, (who was probably fed up waiting for a reliable very high power aero
engine for his own planes). This engine "A" was run in full scale, but it appears that the later B, C, D "Gruppenmotors" were probably not run
in full scale, and it states later power estimates were from single cylinder test results extrapolated, and using the results from the HM512
based full scale test.

 

[brianwnz]

Thanks for the report, and I'm glad you like my site. I do what I can to keep the old stuff alive. There is a lot more info out there, but finding it and compiling it is the difficult part. I cannot wait to see what Calum Douglas has uncovered and included in his book "The Secret Horsepower Race." A lot of real research has gone into it.

For fun, I have attached patents for Max Müller's "Combined Recoil Drive" engine. They are the same patent; one is German and the other US.

Thanks again! I've seen the diagrams in an old Geoffrey Smith book on turbines, but although he states they were a Junkers design, it didn't mention Muller - nice to know the original designer. It seems Muller took the ML concept with him to Heinkel when he and part of his old Junkers team shifted there. Hans von Ohain states they took a petrol and a Diesel engine design along with them - I'd love to find any photos/drawings of that diesel........ I have the rather poor quality drawing from the Heinkel turbine report, but nothing else.

I also wonder when/how/if Junkers kept going with the ML concept, as they seem to have had a seperate 10/12-cylinder design that the Russians took over after WWII ended. So many questions; it is at times like these I do wish I spoke German and Russian........ I think I found these pics on this site, but they're too tantalising not to share again. I'll have to get a copy of Calum's book also and see if some if some questions are answered, or maybe I'll have some new ones - it sounds great!

 

[brianwnz]

Hi Brian,
I dont have a copy of that specific article, but from the "look" - I`d say its almost certainly a journal article in one of the "Jahrbuch der Deutchen Akademie der Luftfahrtforschung" bound volumes (which I have a few volumes of, but not I think one containing that article). These volumes are available at certain archives so I think it ought to be possible to find a proper copy of it eventually.

I have a few brief bits on the Gruppenmotor in my book, but very little as it was not envisaged as a fighter engine. I have photos which are clearly more advanced than a mockup, and are obviously proper machined parts. I`d have to check again as to if it actually ran in full-scale form.

EDIT:

I`ve got a Volkenrode translation - it appears upon inspection this morning.

As per Kamm`s article, it appears that the text on the OldMachinePress is accurate on this first point - in that this "A" Gruppenmotor was formed of cylinders
from the Hirth Hm512. Kamm says it says all paid for by Prof. Messerschmitt, (who was probably fed up waiting for a reliable very high power aero
engine for his own planes). This engine "A" was run in full scale, but it appears that the later B, C, D "Gruppenmotors" were probably not run
in full scale, and it states later power estimates were from single cylinder test results extrapolated, and using the results from the HM512
based full scale test.

Thanks Calum,

I appreciate your input, and I'm looking forward to reading your book as well - I wondered about the German reports; might be a stretch to find copies in Australia, but maybe it's just a good excuse to travel to Europe once the skies are open again

 

[basil]

Thanks again! I've seen the diagrams in an old Geoffrey Smith book on turbines, but although he states they were a Junkers design, it didn't mention Muller - nice to know the original designer. It seems Muller took the ML concept with him to Heinkel when he and part of his old Junkers team shifted there. Hans von Ohain states they took a petrol and a Diesel engine design along with them - I'd love to find any photos/drawings of that diesel........ I have the rather poor quality drawing from the Heinkel turbine report, but nothing else.

I also wonder when/how/if Junkers kept going with the ML concept, as they seem to have had a seperate 10/12-cylinder design that the Russians took over after WWII ended. So many questions; it is at times like these I do wish I spoke German and Russian........ I think I found these pics on this site, but they're too tantalising not to share again. I'll have to get a copy of Calum's book also and see if some if some questions are answered, or maybe I'll have some new ones - it sounds great!

brianwnz, thanks for posting the front view of the this engine; first time I see the cylinder arrangement of the P 130 (or ML 032), as it was called correctly. As my native language is german perhaps I can help with the one or the other question.

 

[Capt. Vick]

Weird