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Flags of our Fathers... Fiction?
- Thread starter comiso90
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lesofprimus
Brigadier General
Ill tell u what guys, that was a bunch of information discussed most excellently... Great stuff....
Interestingly enough, I think if u look at the pic I posted,
I think that the distance of the third wave from the beach suggests more than 2,000 yards to me... I think we can assume that at the very least the Battlewagons were not inshore (under 3,000 yards) during the initial assault... I havent been able to find any other aerial photos to prove this once and for all...
Interestingly enough, I think if u look at the pic I posted,
I think that the distance of the third wave from the beach suggests more than 2,000 yards to me... I think we can assume that at the very least the Battlewagons were not inshore (under 3,000 yards) during the initial assault... I havent been able to find any other aerial photos to prove this once and for all...
I keep kicking it over in my head and the numbers for putting a BB in at less than 3000 yards don't work. Not saying the reports are wrong, but if you think about it, being in that close creates more problems than it solves.
The only thing a BB can shoot at that close (with main armament) would be Suribachi. The rest of the island is relatively flat. Figuring they are about a mile off shore, the projectiles really don't start to drop in that space. If you are shooting at the mountain, all well and good. It is a big mound and it can be hit. But the rest of the island, you have a good chance of your big shells flying the width of the island and landing over the other side. And our ships were on the other side.
Figured they might be doing reduced charge shots. That would work on the mountain. But really have little affect on the flat parts. In short, the BB guns are too close and the rounds do not have the opportunity to drop. No plunging fire. All direct. Doing that with a DD is fine, they're good for that. But above that, I would figure they would want the rounds to penetrate and burst deep (especially when shooting at bunkers and caves).
But then again, it shows in Evan's post that they did get that close. It is repeated in two different paragraphs with two different ships at slightly different distances. Hence, it is not a typo.
This is the stuff I think about at 3am on sleepless nights. Shooting at Suribachi with main guns is the only thing I come up with at that range.
The only thing a BB can shoot at that close (with main armament) would be Suribachi. The rest of the island is relatively flat. Figuring they are about a mile off shore, the projectiles really don't start to drop in that space. If you are shooting at the mountain, all well and good. It is a big mound and it can be hit. But the rest of the island, you have a good chance of your big shells flying the width of the island and landing over the other side. And our ships were on the other side.
Figured they might be doing reduced charge shots. That would work on the mountain. But really have little affect on the flat parts. In short, the BB guns are too close and the rounds do not have the opportunity to drop. No plunging fire. All direct. Doing that with a DD is fine, they're good for that. But above that, I would figure they would want the rounds to penetrate and burst deep (especially when shooting at bunkers and caves).
But then again, it shows in Evan's post that they did get that close. It is repeated in two different paragraphs with two different ships at slightly different distances. Hence, it is not a typo.
This is the stuff I think about at 3am on sleepless nights. Shooting at Suribachi with main guns is the only thing I come up with at that range.
evangilder
"Shooter"
Keep in mind that the info on the Navy History site is from after-action reports and first hand information. I do know that ships coming dangerously close to shore to help our guys on the ground played itself out many times in the Pacific. My Uncle Jack was on Iwo, but unfortunately, he is not around anymore. One of the post-battle reports with Iwo stated that to be able to destroy the Japanese bunkers, several direct hits had to be accomplished.
I don't think the Battleships came that close during the initial landings. But then, the Japanese held their fire initially to allow the Marines to get into the interlapping fields of fire. Once the guys on the beaches started coming under the tremendous barrage, I believe that is when it happened.
I don't think the Battleships came that close during the initial landings. But then, the Japanese held their fire initially to allow the Marines to get into the interlapping fields of fire. Once the guys on the beaches started coming under the tremendous barrage, I believe that is when it happened.
lesofprimus
Brigadier General
Hmmm.... Anyone know what the gun tube depression limitations are on those big guns of the BB???
evangilder
"Shooter"
lesofprimus
Brigadier General
That looks to be atleast as far away from the beach as the landing craft in my above pic... Judging that 2000 yards is equal to 6000 feet, Id say by my sailors eye that its atleast a mile from the beachfront..
Also, it looks like her 14 inch guns arent trained into the beach for fire support...
Also, it looks like her 14 inch guns arent trained into the beach for fire support...
evangilder
"Shooter"
I was thinking that same. The picture description only said the Idaho firing on Iwo in support of the battle. It didn't say if it was a pre-invasion or a post invasion fire. I did notice that all the big guns were facing forward.
The two rear turrets could be facing toward the island. I think it is an optical illusion because I dont think there was room on these ships to face the rear turrets foward.
lesofprimus
Brigadier General
Heres another pic of her....
trackend
Chief Master Sergeant
Im not very ofay with the PTO but I found this recent image of Iwo Jima and the waters look very shallow for some way off shore and off the top of my head I would say the draught of a Battleship (around 30ft) would preclude much close inshore work in these waters as manouvering would be very difficult
Attachments
Definitely using the old, slower BBs to do the job. Not the newer, Fast BB class. So the pic from the movie is a Hollywood shot.
But back to the question of how close they were, it's very tough. Put a lot of stock in the after action reports, they are generally pretty accurate. Almost written from consensus as so many people would see them on a ship that size before sending them in (checked for everything from accuracy to typos).
Trackend's pic is interesting as is the pic on the previous page. Shows they were close in but how close is anyone's guess. One thought I had was maybe they weren't using the main battery at that range. Secondary armament and light AA was the weapon of choice. In that case it could work.
But back to the question of how close they were, it's very tough. Put a lot of stock in the after action reports, they are generally pretty accurate. Almost written from consensus as so many people would see them on a ship that size before sending them in (checked for everything from accuracy to typos).
Trackend's pic is interesting as is the pic on the previous page. Shows they were close in but how close is anyone's guess. One thought I had was maybe they weren't using the main battery at that range. Secondary armament and light AA was the weapon of choice. In that case it could work.
davparlr
Senior Master Sergeant
Mount Suribachi is 512 ft high, I believe, so, it appears, the shallow water here would go out no futher than 1000 ft near Suribachi, and no further than 2000 ft at the fartherest. Certainly, 1700 yards is plenty of distance for safe operation. I believe the ones that were there.
Emac44
Staff Sergeant
That Track looks very much like a coral reef in those shoals which would disallow a very large vessel coming in to close to shore line or otherwise you would come aground on those reefs or shallow areas. I would hazard a guess that most Large craft like a battleship would have a very deep draft to much for those reef areas. Perhaps and I am guessing main 14 inch guns were not used but secondary was as long as large vessels stayed out beyond those reefs. any way i would hate to be under the shells from those BBs any way 5 inch or 14 inch. got to pity those poor bastards who were copping it from ship batteries. any way it was a great film. Like to see Letters from Iwo Jima now
