Frank Carey's Hurricanes in Burma.

Discussion in 'Aircraft Markings and Camouflage' started by Glenn Sprouse, Mar 16, 2010.

  1. Glenn Sprouse

    Glenn Sprouse New Member

    Joined:
    Mar 12, 2010
    Messages:
    23
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    1
    Occupation:
    Library Assistant II
    Location:
    Richmond, VA
    Hello All:

    I have been trying to find details about the Hawker Hurricanes used by Frank Carey while he was flying in Burma. I have found only general information on the Hurricanes being used but nothing specific about his aircraft's markings. I know that the majority of the Hurricanes being used by the British in Burma during early 1942 were Mk.IIb with tropical filters and the Dark Earth-Dark Green-Medium Sea Grey cammo pattern. He started out as Squadron Leader in 135 Squadron but was promoted to Wing Commander of 267 Wing. He achieved kills in 135 Sqn flying Hurricane BE181 and while in 267 wing he used Hurricanes BM914, BM842 and BN468 with the majority of all of these kills in BM194. Outside of this information, I have no further info about how the aircraft are marked.

    My question is, would Carey have put his initals on the side of his Hurricane when he was wing commander? I saw a post on another site where someone stated that Carey had a Hurricane IIc with FR*C on the side. Could he have done this with Hurricane IIb BM194? If anyone has any information about this it would be greatly appreciated. Thanks!
     
  2. Glenn Sprouse

    Glenn Sprouse New Member

    Joined:
    Mar 12, 2010
    Messages:
    23
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    1
    Occupation:
    Library Assistant II
    Location:
    Richmond, VA
    #2 Glenn Sprouse, May 27, 2010
    Last edited: May 27, 2010
    Good Afternoon all:

    I have not been able to find any further information on this topic and I am hoping that posting a rough profile of BM914 will spark some interest or jar a memory. This is only my interpritation of what the aircraft may have looked like based on research regarding other known Hurricanes of the same production block and of the markings practices in use at that time and place.
    [​IMG]

    Also, in case anyone noticed, I got the numbers of Carey's hurricane wrong in the previous posting. The correct is BM914, not BM194. :p

    Please feel free to comment. I would love to hear some feedback on this topic. Thanks!

    Also, is there a Hawker Hurricane group or website out there? I would love to run this by fellow Hurricane fans.

    Thanks everyone!

    Glenn Sprouse
     
  3. Wurger

    Wurger Siggy Master
    Staff Member Administrator

    Joined:
    Jun 19, 2005
    Messages:
    47,623
    Likes Received:
    1,462
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Occupation:
    A retired military Navigator/ATC, FIS controller
    Location:
    Poland
    #3 Wurger, May 27, 2010
    Last edited: May 28, 2010
    There is one inaccuracy I have noticed in your previous post.The camo scheme should have been Brown Earth / Dark (RAF) Green / Sky S-type. But not Medium Sea Grey on undersides. The colour was used for camo scheme RAF Green/ Ocean Grey / Medium Sea Grey mostly. Looking at the profile above we can see the standard camo scheme - pattern A with Grey ( just Medium Sea Grey ) code letters used from 06.06.1940 - 15.08.1941. So, either the previous info is not true or the profile is incorrect.
    Also I'm not sure but the code letters "FR-C" could be his persoal initials during the period of time he was WC or GC. As mamo serves the kind of personal initils on fighter aircraft was allowed but there used to be two letters of initials ( or three or what was very rare , four ones ) painted only on a plane.In that case a squadron code and the individual letter of machine weren't painted at all.The only thing that indicated the pilot's duty was a small badge painted on a fuselage at the bottom of a cockpit conopy like in the profile.But it is not the Wing Commander's badge but the Group Captain's one.
     
  4. Wurger

    Wurger Siggy Master
    Staff Member Administrator

    Joined:
    Jun 19, 2005
    Messages:
    47,623
    Likes Received:
    1,462
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Occupation:
    A retired military Navigator/ATC, FIS controller
    Location:
    Poland
    In addition .... I have found that a part of Hurricanes mark IIB used in Burma in 1942 was painted with Olive Green ( Foliage Green ) / Dark Earth / Medium Sea Grey ( Light Grey). So it is possible you meant the variant of camo painting.
     
  5. Wurger

    Wurger Siggy Master
    Staff Member Administrator

    Joined:
    Jun 19, 2005
    Messages:
    47,623
    Likes Received:
    1,462
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Occupation:
    A retired military Navigator/ATC, FIS controller
    Location:
    Poland
    And here you are the profile of Hurricane of the 135th Squadron I found in a book of Osprey Pub. "Hurricane Aces 1941-1945"
     

    Attached Files:

  6. buffnut453

    buffnut453 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 25, 2007
    Messages:
    2,174
    Likes Received:
    227
    Trophy Points:
    63
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Virginia, US of A
    Wurger,

    What's the source of that info? I don't think that scheme applies in 1942 - later, yes, but not at the stage when the Japanese were knocking at the door of India. If it did occur in '42, it must have been much later on - there simply wasn't time to fuss with repainting undersides and I seriously doubt olive or foliage green would have been substituted for RAF Dark Green.

    Any additional insights would be welcome.
     
  7. Wildcat

    Wildcat Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 11, 2005
    Messages:
    8,857
    Likes Received:
    376
    Trophy Points:
    83
    Gender:
    Male
    Occupation:
    Workin' for the man....
    Location:
    South East Queensland
    I always thought Foliage green was used exclusively by the RAAF, being an Australian version of (and therefore different) to RAF dark green?
     
  8. Wurger

    Wurger Siggy Master
    Staff Member Administrator

    Joined:
    Jun 19, 2005
    Messages:
    47,623
    Likes Received:
    1,462
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Occupation:
    A retired military Navigator/ATC, FIS controller
    Location:
    Poland
    I have found the info in Poish booklet of TBiU series no.132 .There is said that Hurricanes at the East Asia TO were painted like these in the GB generally.But in 1942 a part of those in Burma and India wore the camo scheme consisted of Foliage Green/Dark Earth/Medium Sea Grey.

    Certainly you might be right with your statement above.However, it has to be taken into considerstion that a such climate like in Burma always makes an impact on the painting .Especially if these machines were taking part in struggles very often.Rain, wind ,mud etc....must have made all technical maintenace crews really wired.Also I don't think the GB Government would take care of supplying of correct paints to the Eastern Asia area when there were problems with all on the being under siege the British Isles.
    So using paints that were used at the TO by other UK nations would be the easy way of aircraft maintenence.
     

    Attached Files:

  9. Wurger

    Wurger Siggy Master
    Staff Member Administrator

    Joined:
    Jun 19, 2005
    Messages:
    47,623
    Likes Received:
    1,462
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Occupation:
    A retired military Navigator/ATC, FIS controller
    Location:
    Poland
    If the Hurricane serial number is correct I have found this in SAM Publication "Modellers Datafile" no.2.
     

    Attached Files:

  10. antoni

    antoni Banned

    Joined:
    Jun 15, 2007
    Messages:
    397
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    When the Japanese launched their attack in the' Far East on 7 December 1941, there were no Hurricanes at all in the region. Between the wars, Britain had assumed that there would be sufficient time to send a fleet to the Far East, which would be based at Singapore in order to deter any Japanese aggression. The war with Germany prevented this from happening, and it was only a matter of days before the Japanese attack that the first Hurricane squadron destined for the defence of Singapore, 242 Sqn, had been despatched. Nos 605, 232, and 258 Sqns which were already en route for other destinations were diverted to the Far East, arriving by 20 December. Unfortunately most of the RAF records of this period were destroyed and details of the camouflage and markings carried by the Hurricanes in the Far East during this period are scarce,


    The instructions in force for the camouflage of aircraft for service abroad at this time specified that the upper surfaces were to be either Dark Green and Dark Earth or Dark Green and Middle Stone, according to the nature of the country in which they were to operate. Under surfaces were to be Sky. The few photographs to have survived of the Hurricanes which fought over Singapore and the East Indies until March 1941 appear to show the Hurricanes to be fitted with tropical filters and camouflaged in both of these schemes. This should not be too surprising as the Hurricanes had been diverted from other destinations including some in the Middle East.

    Other Squadrons were also diverted from the Middle East to the Far East such as 17, 135, and 136 Squadrons which were sent to Burma as 267 Wing. Of these squadrons, 17 Sqn is known to have had several Hurricanes which were finished in the Dark Green and Middle Stone scheme, (from the BE serial number range), The under surfaces appear to have been a light colour. The fact that these aircraft had been diverted from the Middle East where Sky was considered unsuitable may be an indication that the under surfaces of these aircraft were Sky Blue. These aircraft carried the Squadron's YB codes in Medium Sea Grey and also modified the roundels on the upper surfaces of the main planes to the Red, White and Blue variety in what appears to be the then usual 1-3-5 proportions. It is not known whether this practice extended to the other squadrons in the Wing or exactly why it was done, but the most likely explanation is that the intention was to make the national marking more prominent and easily identified, especially in the light of subsequent events.


    May 1942 saw the national markings change to the revised style National marking I, II, III and Fin marking (i), and eventually these markings found their way into service on Hurricanes in the Far East along with the Day Fighter Scheme which was now established on the UK based production lines. By October 1942 the camouflage requirements for Day Fighters abroad had been revised. Now the upper surfaces were to be either the Day Fighter Scheme consisting of Dark Green and Ocean Grey; the Temperate Land Scheme of Dark Green and Dark Earth, or the Desert Scheme which was now defined as consisting of Dark Earth and Middle Stone - the implication from this is that the Dark Green and Middle Stone scheme (aka Tropical Land Scheme) had by now been taken out of production. Under surfaces were to be "Sky or azure" with all the confusing interpretations that this phrase is open to. Photographs of Hurricanes in the Far East tend to show a very light tone on their under surfaces which might suggest the use of Sky Blue. The addition of Light Mediterranean Blue to the list of authorised under surface colours in October 1942 serves to confuse the issue even more, but as this colour seems to reproduce as a comparatively dark tone in b&w photographs, it would appear to not have been used in the Far East.


    From the outbreak of hostilities in the Far East in December 1941, the prominence of the Red centre in the RAF National marking had proved a problem as the Blue colour often faded to the point where at a distance it merged into the camouflage. As a result the Red centre became the most prominent feature of the marking, thus offering ample scope for misidentification. With the arrival of the American USAAF in India by April 1943, this problem had become acute following a number of errors in identification. The suggestion was made that perhaps the RAF National marking should be altered in some way so as to make British aircraft more easily recognised.

    The solution was to adopt the same markings as used by the RAAF for exactly the same reason, eliminating the Red from the roundel entirely. Trials were put in hand to assess the new marking's suitability, during which it was discovered that the White centre in the new roundel was too prominent and compromised the camouflage of the aircraft. The solution was to mix a new off-white colour using four parts White and one part Blue, which was found to give a marking which was visible from 1,700 yards but did not compromise the aircraft's camouflage scheme. At the same time that the roundel was revised, the fin flash was also altered to off-white and Blue, with the off-white leading.
    Introduced from the end of June 1943, the new markings were originally sized in accordance with the provisions of the then current AMO, but after the Australians had been consulted about their markings, the RAF adopted the same proportions employed by the RAAF from about September 1943.

    The new National markings were designed for three sizes of aircraft, small, medium, and large. Hurricanes, being single engine aircraft were classed as 'small' and therefore were to be marked with Blue roundels of 16 inches overall diameter with 6 inch diameter white centres and a flash 24 inches high and 16 inches wide divided into two 8 inch wide segments with the white leading.

    By 1943, the profusion of colour schemes which could be applied to Hurricanes, and other types, destined for overseas service was causing problems on the production line, as at the time of manufacture, it was usually impossible to tell where in the world the aircraft would eventually serve, which meant that aircraft could be sent to an overseas theatre wearing an entirely inappropriate camouflage scheme which then had to be altered before the aircraft could be issued to a squadron.

    This problem is illustrated by a postagram sent from AHQ India to several Maintenance Units and Headquarters in India on 27 October 1943. Entitled 'Camouflage of Day Fighter Aircraft' the postagram stated that some Hurricanes were being received into India camouflaged with the Desert Scheme and carrying UK identification markings with Yellow borders. These and other similar cases were to be re-camouflaged before despatch, in the Day Fighter Scheme with 'India' markings.

    Details of the scheme were given as upper surfaces in Dark Green and Ocean Grey with under surfaces in Medium Sea Grey. Tactical markings included the Sky spinner and rear fuselage band and the Yellow strip along the leading edges of the wing. Squadron codes were to be Sky.

    Within a month of these instructions being issued it had apparently been decided to accept any aircraft camouflaged in the Temperate Land Scheme as they were, and not recamouflage them. Meanwhile back in the UK the decision was taken at the end of 1943 that the camouflage and markings applied to all fighters would be those authorised for UK based aircraft, so the supply of Hurricanes to the Far East in the Temperate Land Scheme would, in the fullness of time, dry up.

    This was somewhat unfortunate, as over the next few months a rethink of the camouflage requirements for fighter aircraft in the Far East seems to have taken place and by April 1944 the Temperate Land Scheme of Dark Earth and Dark Green was the preferred camouflage scheme for use on the upper surfaces, with Medium Sea Grey on the under surfaces. This scheme was' promulgated by an Air Force Order (India) in April 1944. The same order specified that no tactical markings were to be carried and the squadron codes were to be applied in Sky.

    The final change in the colour scheme carried by Hurricanes in the Far East came with the introduction of Air Command South East Asia Special Identification Markings. On Hurricanes these took the form of a White spinner with a 28 inch wide band around the main planes and 18 inch wide bands around the tailplanes and fin.

    When originally introduced on Hurricanes from 1 February 1945, the bands extended across the full chord of the main planes, tailplanes, fin and rudder. The Air Ministry was as ever concerned that this practice might upset the balance of the control surfaces and asked that the markings should not be applied over the ailerons, elevators and the rudder. By this time of course it was too late as many aircraft had already been marked up. As a consequence it is possible to find Hurricanes with the White markings extending across the full chord of wings and control surfaces, whilst on others the markings can be seen only on the fixed surfaces.

    The Temperate Land Scheme of Dark Earth and Dark Green with Medium Sea Grey under surfaces appears to have then remained in use on the Hurricanes in the Far East until the end of hostilities, When the Air Ministry enquired of the Overseas Commands which aircraft it would be permissible to operate without camouflage as part of the review of camouflage policy, which was being undertaken in early 1945, ACSEA cited the Hurri9ane as being the one fighter type for which camouflage was absolutely essential, although the exact reason for this is not known.
     
  11. antoni

    antoni Banned

    Joined:
    Jun 15, 2007
    Messages:
    397
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    PR Hurricanes converted in Egypt. These Hurricanes are thought to have been camouflaged in a very dark blue colour which was even darker than the Blue used in the National markings. This colour is said to have been mixed from 5 gallons of an ICI colour called 'Bosun blue' to which was added 3Ib Black pigment and 16lb of Zinc powder and turpentine. The resulting colour has been described as 'Royal blue' which was fractionally darker than FS 35109. The same colour is thought to have been applied to the Hurricane PR Mk lls converted during late 1942 to early 1943, many of which subsequently went to No 3 PRU in India.

    The first such aircraft are thought to have arrived in Rangoon in January 1942, carrying Red and Blue roundels on both wings and fuselage, defined with a 4 inch wide Yellow surround which reduced the diameter of the blue portion of the roundels. Serial numbers were applied in 4 inch high Night characters. Later deliveries were also camouflaged in the same shade of dark blue but the proportions of their markings differed from one Hurricane to another, although they remained the Red, Blue and Yellow variety. Some Hurricanes were delivered with National marking I, ll, and III with their associated fin flash, but it is thought that the fuselage and fin markings were soon deleted so that the Hurricanes of 3 PRU only carried National markings on the wings with the serial number and individual aircraft letter on the fuselage.

    W/C F R Carey is recorded having two aircraft codes FRC, a Hurricane Mk IIc, serial unknown, and Tempest F.2 PR674 while OC 135 Wing. The aircraft may have also carried a Wing Commander’s pennant.
     
  12. Glenn Sprouse

    Glenn Sprouse New Member

    Joined:
    Mar 12, 2010
    Messages:
    23
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    1
    Occupation:
    Library Assistant II
    Location:
    Richmond, VA
    Thanks for all of the information guys!

    I have modified the profile with a couple of diffrent possibilities based on the information provided.
    [​IMG]

    I got the information about structure and cammo by compating known photos and existing profiles of Hurricanes out of the same production block as BM914 as well as photos and profiles of aircraft in the same squadrons at the same time as BM914, such as the profile of Jack Storey's hurricane provided by Siggi. That is why the profile was colored tha way it was. It could have been very diffrent in reality. I know that some of the other aircraft in other squadrons at Burma during the same time period were delivered in desert colors, so BM914 could have had a similar scheme. Also, thanks Siggi for providing the serial number range information. It is from a diffrent source than the one I used, but they match so I have a confirmation on the information I was using. Thanks!

    Also, thanks to antoni for confirming the info I had about Carey having a MkIIc with his initials on it. I had only herd that second hand from another source and wasn't too sure about it until now. Also, thanks for all the detailed information on Hurricane cammo. That is really appreciated!

    Let me know what you think of the changes and, as always, thanks for the help and cirticisms!

    Glenn
     
  13. Wurger

    Wurger Siggy Master
    Staff Member Administrator

    Joined:
    Jun 19, 2005
    Messages:
    47,623
    Likes Received:
    1,462
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Occupation:
    A retired military Navigator/ATC, FIS controller
    Location:
    Poland
    #13 Wurger, May 28, 2010
    Last edited: May 28, 2010
    I think both of these profiles look very good. :) Nicely done.
     
  14. antoni

    antoni Banned

    Joined:
    Jun 15, 2007
    Messages:
    397
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    #14 antoni, May 29, 2010
    Last edited: May 29, 2010
    The one before.
     
  15. Wurger

    Wurger Siggy Master
    Staff Member Administrator

    Joined:
    Jun 19, 2005
    Messages:
    47,623
    Likes Received:
    1,462
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Occupation:
    A retired military Navigator/ATC, FIS controller
    Location:
    Poland
    Antoni your finds are great as usually. But it is too large in size again.I have informed you about it a few times.Please resize shots before you can post them.A size of 800-830 pixels in a picture width is enough and allows to watch them fully on most VDUs.
     
  16. Wayne Little

    Wayne Little Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 7, 2006
    Messages:
    51,156
    Likes Received:
    847
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Location:
    Adelaide Sth. Aust.
    Nice info Antoni.....and the profiles look good Glenn.
     
  17. Glenn Sprouse

    Glenn Sprouse New Member

    Joined:
    Mar 12, 2010
    Messages:
    23
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    1
    Occupation:
    Library Assistant II
    Location:
    Richmond, VA
    Thanks for all of the responses everyone!

    If I understand Antoni, the Hurricane he preferred was the one marked FR*C. If this is the case I'll go with this one. I happen to lean toward this one myself.

    I have read the boigraphy on Frank Carey called "FRANK 'CHOTA' CAREY: The Epic Story of G/C Carey CBE, DFC and 2 Bars, AFC, DFM, US Silver Star " by Norman Franks. It was a great book, but it did not go into the codes and other details that modelers like myself are always looking for. I highly reccomend it for anyone interested in Frank Carey.

    Thanks guys!

    Glenn
     
  18. danj

    danj New Member

    Joined:
    Jun 8, 2010
    Messages:
    2
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    1
    Just want to make sure. It was mentioned earlier that he had a IIC with his initials but I thought this was a IIB. Lacks the external guns so I assume it's a IIB but that would contradict the confirmation about his IIC with initials rather than a IIB.
     
  19. Glenn Sprouse

    Glenn Sprouse New Member

    Joined:
    Mar 12, 2010
    Messages:
    23
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    1
    Occupation:
    Library Assistant II
    Location:
    Richmond, VA
    Hello Danj:

    You are correct, the IIb was armed with .303 guns while the IIc had 20mm cannon. I have always herd that a IIc had his initials, but he would have not had that particular aircraft until after his last victories were scored in spring of 1942. The Hurricanes at his disposal during that spring were Mk.IIb's.

    What I wanted to know was, could the Mk.IIb he flew in the spring be marked with his initials in the same manner as his Mk.IIc which we know did have his initials. The only information that I had to go by was the serials of the Hurricane IIb he flew once he was promoted to Wing Commander in Spring of 1942, which was BM914. I got this information from the biography of Frank Carey I mentioned earlier. So I made some profiles based on what researched on the aircraft of the same production "block" as well as the other known Hurricanes in the same wing at the same time and place along with the standard marking practices being used by the RAF at the time. I then posted these here hoping that someone had some more information than I did and could point me in the right direction. The markings I presented here are a guestimate of what BM914 could have looked like.

    The reason I am trying so hard for that particular time period is because I am attempting to expand on what was going on in China at the same time the AVG was active and the biggest name in the RAF in Burma at the that time was Frank Carey. Plus, it would be really neat to have a model of his aircraft when he scored his last victories in Burma.

    Hope this explains a little better what I am up to. Thanks for the imput.

    Glenn
     
  20. danj

    danj New Member

    Joined:
    Jun 8, 2010
    Messages:
    2
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    1
    Does anyone have any photos or profiles. The Lone Star Museum of Texas had a Hurricane with his MkIIB but I'm wondering if anyone has letter codes for his MK IIC.
     
Loading...

Share This Page