Fw-190 cannons against tanks

Discussion in 'Weapons Systems Tech.' started by Enigma-, Aug 19, 2008.

  1. Enigma-

    Enigma- New Member

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    Hello All


    How was the performance of MG-151/20 and the MK 108 against the Sherman and T34?
    Coud they do any damage against top armor, engine on back ?


    I am especially interested in the MK 108, is there any accounts of pilots against tanks with these weapons ?, i have searched google for penetration tables but have found nothing.

    Thnx for a great forum !

    Enigma
     
  2. Erich

    Erich the old Sage
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    0 on tanks

    it was better suited against soft skin vehicles such as motor transport, it proved itself quite capable on the Ost front against the Soviets in the words of JG 7, 262 pilots for one............it was horrific
     
  3. Enigma-

    Enigma- New Member

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    Thnx for answer.


    But after searching abit on the forum i found this:

    Penetration table por the 20 mm Pzgr. 24 mm at 100 meters (90 º incidence) in 140 kg/squre mm steel, equivalent to a SAE 4140 alloy. The discontinued line indicated penetration after get trough a 3 mm 20 º tilted duraluminium plate.

    so 24mm of armor, it shoud do some damage on the Sherman/T34 at the engine compartment.
     
  4. Erich

    Erich the old Sage
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    should is a very big word. it has been discussed here on a previous thread just what was used by the RAF at Normandie and their claims against German Armor, and after battle it was found that overall the firepower of the ground attack birds was sadly lacking even with the use of rockets
     
  5. Soundbreaker Welch?

    Soundbreaker Welch? Active Member

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    Does that includes the P-47 too, then?
     
  6. kool kitty89

    kool kitty89 Well-Known Member

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    P-47 with rockets or bombs? All the .50's could really do is mess up the tracks.

    The 5" HVAR was probably the best anti-tank weapon the P-47 used, more powerful and accurate than the tube launched 4.5" rockets, or British rail launched RP-3 rockets and were mounted on "zero length" launchers which imposed a minimum performance penalty.

    Napalm was probably the most effective, but was very limited in operational use and iirc was most used by the F4U in the PTO. (see the anti-tank thread for more info)
     
  7. Ramirezzz

    Ramirezzz Member

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    as for East Front the tests shown as nearly as zero AP capability of the MG-151/20 regarding not only T-34/76 and KV-1, but some light types as T-60 and T-70 in a "normal" strafe dive (up to some 45' of incidence)
    However the upper hull and the engine armour of all Soviet tank types could be penetrated from 50' degree strafes.
     
  8. Enigma

    Enigma New Member

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    Got a new book today : Luftwaffe Aces - German Combat pilots of WWII (stackpole)

    I read about Otto WeiB, famous Hs123 and 129 pilot, here is something i noted :

    The Hs-129s, the first of these faster and more heavily armed close support aircraft to reach the front, repeatedly dove on the waves of Russian tanks. The Hs-129 B-I was armed with two 20-mm MG 151/20 cannon in the fuselage sides and two 7.9-mm MG 17s located in the wing roots between the two spars. The aircraft lacked the heavy-caliber weapons needed to destroy the well-armored Russian tanks from in front, so they attacked from the rear, concentrating on the more vulnerable engine and cooling systems. When their cannon were armed with antitank rounds with tungsten cores, the Hs-129s could also penetrate the side armor of enemy tanks.

    The Henschels flew around the tanks in a wide arc, taking fire from the antiaircraft guns the Russians had moved forward. The defensive fire was inaccurate, however, and the Hs-129s descended to attack height. They were then within range of Russian small-arms fire. Otto WeiB heard bullets striking his aircraft as he reached the minimum height of eighty meters. Then he called to his pilots: "Attack from left to right. Everyone take one!"
    The tank he had selected as his target grew quickly. WeiB felt several blows against the armored canopy that protected the pilot of the Hs-129. He then pressed the firing buttons. WeiB saw smoke trails from the armorpiercing 20-mm rounds strike the engine compartment of the enemy tanks and clouds of steam spurt from the ruptured cooling system before he flashed past twenty meters above the tank.



    Manstein launched Operation Buzzard Hunt, the conquest of the Kerch Peninsula. The 1st Close-Support Wing took part in this operation, earning fearsome reputation. Although the Hs-129 pilots could attack the side armor of Soviet tanks with their tungsten-core 20mm rounds, the preferred angle of attack--as was the case with the units Bf-109 Fs--remained the rear of the tank where the engine compartment was located.



    So even the Bf-109 coud harm the T34 from behind at Engine / Cooling systems with 20mm normal AP.



    Enigma
     
  9. kool kitty89

    kool kitty89 Well-Known Member

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    I didn't know the MG 151/20 used Tungsten penetrators. I've read that the high velocity MG-151 (15mm) did, but not the 20mm.

    Also note that in June of 1941 the Hs 129B-1's received the powerful 30mm MK 101 cannon.

     
  10. Airframes

    Airframes Benevolens Magister

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    I remember watching a firepower demo at Larkhill, UK., when I was still in Airborne, back in the late '70's, when a R.A.F. Jaguar, and a Harrier, straffed ground targets, including some old APC's and tanks. If I remember right, the tanks were Churchills and late-model Shermans, as used on a number of British A.T. ranges at the time. Both the above aircraft were armed with the 30mm 'Aden' gun, I think the mark5, which was basically a Royal Small Arms Factory development based on the German 30mm MK213 aircraft cannon.
    The APC's received multiple hits, with total penetration (they were old Saracens) and the tanks had strike marks, partial penetration on side armour, full penetration on upper hulls, rear plates and engine covers.
    The ammunition used at the time was, we were told, a 5/5 load of AP/HE. The HE is a 495 gram round, tungsten carbide, with a MV of approx 2,630 fps, at a cylic rate of 1,200 to 1,400 rpm. The Aden is effective against most targets, except modern MBT's. Given the above, the 20mm would do some damage to the rear of a Sherman, as I believe the MV was higher than the MK213 weapon, although with a lighter grain-weight round (I need to check it out.) but I'm not so sure it would disable the vehicle. I'll see what I can dig out, if I can get mobile; damned arthritis is giving me hell, got ankles and knees like an overweight elephant!
     
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