German notgeld bank notes
- Thread starter Thorlifter
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A4K
Colonel
Better twice than not at all.
Some very sad statistics in that and previous posts...
Some very sad statistics in that and previous posts...
The apalling conditions in the camp system were not present in the original KZ like Dachau pre-war. These were not holiday camps but neither could we honestly call them death camps as we might later. That is not to suggest that people were not murdered in these camps,though usually under some dubious legal cover.
People did protest some pre-war Nazi policies. Both forced sterilisation and the euthenasing of the mentally or physically disabled stirred up considerable resistance from some sections of German society and the Churches. The program of euthenasia was suspended (I'd have to check the dates when I'm at home).
The nazification of German society was a concious effort to drag the people along with the NSDAP. It is difficult for us today to imagine just how successful this process was.
A majority of people in the UK support a death penalty today but parliament does not.Imagine that being the other way around. How long would it be before the penalty was restored?
After the war the atrocities were dragged into the light of day but you can't hold such things over the entire German people indefinitely. There was a supposed "de-nazification" of German institutions,though a quick look at the Judiciary where most judges simply moved into the new democratic German system would make you question how effective that really was. There was also a realisation that Germany would have to be rebuilt and developed to take its place alongside other Western European nations and on the front line against the Soviet Union.
It is true that much dirt was swept under the carpet but it is only with the benefit of hindsight,a luxury afforded the historian,that we can question whether it should have been. At the time it was deemed expedient and in the interests of the victorious powers as well as Germany itself.
Cheers
Steve
I think Germany is a perfect example of a nation being rebuilt, and taking its side among the worlds nations in peace. The nation has prospered and become a respectable nation. You can't condemn everyone for living in a country who's govt. committed such things, you also can not condemn people for being born in the nation during and after such things took place.
Not saying that you or anyone else is doing such things.
Not saying that you or anyone else is doing such things.
I think Germany is a perfect example of a nation being rebuilt, and taking its side among the worlds nations in peace. The nation has prospered and become a respectable nation. You can't condemn everyone for living in a country who's govt. committed such things, you also can not condemn people for being born in the nation during and after such things took place.
Not saying that you or anyone else is doing such things.
I agree.
We had the Nuremberg trials and these were and did draw a line under the whole question of "German guilt".
The issue is that it was accepted then that many guilty parties got away with it. This has become somehow less acceptable as time has passed.
It is only now,much too late,that some people question the lack of post war prosecutions in Germany. The lack of will,both in West Germany and other Western States to go after the guilty will always cause concern.
The problem is that a survivor or family member of a victim of the massacre of British (and some French) soldiers at Wourmhoudt would like to see the perpetrator brought to justice rather than living out his dotage near Munich,never having even been charged with an offence.
I understand why it was important to bring Eichmann or Barbie to trial, but Demjanjuk? I'm as anti-nazi as anyone but that was,to be polite,a thin case. How far must we go?
Post war we had to move on and move on quickly. We could not spend fifty years going over these things time and time again. The morals of the argument are extremely dubious but it is the real world that we live in.
Cheers
Steve
I agree with you.
mikewint
Captain
Don't poo-poo semantics. Humans love their word games. Visiting the former Loved one in the Slumber chamber. Sounds like Grandpa is just taking a nap. Recoiless rifles aren't and Friendly fire isn't.
If people die because of gas, bullets, or overwork and poor nutrition does it matter what the place it happened in is called? Call it Disneyland if you like. people are still dead
If people die because of gas, bullets, or overwork and poor nutrition does it matter what the place it happened in is called? Call it Disneyland if you like. people are still dead
It does as a matter of historical accuracy.
I wouldn't call a Bf 109 E a Bf 109 F despite them being superficially the same,indistinguishable to most people. Neither would I call Treblinka a concentration camp or Belsen an extermination camp.
People died in the most dreadful circumstances in both but under different parts of the system. They are not the same.
Cheers
Steve
A4K
Colonel
Agreed. A name is just a technical detail, but not different for nothing.
The economics were different too. Aktion Reinhardt was accounted for seperately to other parts of the system. All those accounts and the enormous profits were published at Nuremberg.
I can't possibly post thousands of documents here but this one communique will give an idea of the sums involved.
TOP SECRET
The Higher SS and Police Chief in the Operational Zone of the Adriatic Coast
Trieste, 1/5/1944.
Gl./Go.-Diary No. 1/44 Top Secret PK.
To the Reichsfuehrer SS and Reich Minister of the Interior Heinrich Himmler Berlin
Reichsfuehrer,
The following assets from the Action "Reinhard" were delivered to the SS Economic and Administrative Head Office, Berlin, for further transmission to the Reichsbank or to the Reich Ministry of Economics:
a. Reichsmark sums totaling RM 53,013,133.51
Currency in Bank notes from all the principal countries in the world (half a million dollars being particularly to be noted) to a total value of RM 1,452,904.65
Foreign currency in gold coins to a total value of RM 843,802.75
Precious metals (about 1,800 kg. of gold and about 10,000 kg. of silver in bars) to a total value of RM 5,353,943.00
Other valuables such as jewellery, watches, spectacles, etc. (the number of watches being particularly worthy of note - about 16,000 in working order and about 51,000 requiring repair: they have been placed at the disposal of the troops) RM 26,089,800.00
About 1,000 wagons of textiles to a total value of RM 13,294,400.00
Total RM 100,047,983.91
1,000 wagons of textiles and about another 50% of the above mentioned assets - which still have to be counted and valued - are warehoused here. It should be noted here that the estimated values were based on the officially established rates of exchange or prices, which however would be much higher on the open market, for instance in the sale of precious stones or precious metals abroad, as the flight to investments in articles whose value is not subject to much fluctuation is much greater there than with us. Besides these sales abroad bring us foreign currency. If these prices were taken as a basis of evaluation here, this was done in order to be able to give a picture of the assets delivered; in general this evaluation is not authoritative. The value of the acquisition lies principally in the fact that such large quantities of urgently needed raw materials can thereby be gained and that, on the basis of the assets obtained, foreign currency can be brought in, with which raw materials can in turn be bought by Reich authorities.
[Sgd.] Globocnik SS Gruppenfuehrer and Lieut. General of Police.
Remember that these accounts are specifically from Aktion Reinhardt comprising six camps. The figures for the entire system are enormous.
Luckily the Germans were conscientious accountants. There are mountains of such documents still in existence. Tough for the deniers but then they'll say everyone of the many thousands are fake!
The important figures in the administration of this mass murder process were men whose names most will not have heard, Hermann Höfle, Christian Wirth, Richard Thomalla, Georg Michalsen, Hermann Worthoff, and Amon Göth.
Less we forget.
Steve
I can't possibly post thousands of documents here but this one communique will give an idea of the sums involved.
TOP SECRET
The Higher SS and Police Chief in the Operational Zone of the Adriatic Coast
Trieste, 1/5/1944.
Gl./Go.-Diary No. 1/44 Top Secret PK.
To the Reichsfuehrer SS and Reich Minister of the Interior Heinrich Himmler Berlin
Reichsfuehrer,
The following assets from the Action "Reinhard" were delivered to the SS Economic and Administrative Head Office, Berlin, for further transmission to the Reichsbank or to the Reich Ministry of Economics:
a. Reichsmark sums totaling RM 53,013,133.51
Currency in Bank notes from all the principal countries in the world (half a million dollars being particularly to be noted) to a total value of RM 1,452,904.65
Foreign currency in gold coins to a total value of RM 843,802.75
Precious metals (about 1,800 kg. of gold and about 10,000 kg. of silver in bars) to a total value of RM 5,353,943.00
Other valuables such as jewellery, watches, spectacles, etc. (the number of watches being particularly worthy of note - about 16,000 in working order and about 51,000 requiring repair: they have been placed at the disposal of the troops) RM 26,089,800.00
About 1,000 wagons of textiles to a total value of RM 13,294,400.00
Total RM 100,047,983.91
1,000 wagons of textiles and about another 50% of the above mentioned assets - which still have to be counted and valued - are warehoused here. It should be noted here that the estimated values were based on the officially established rates of exchange or prices, which however would be much higher on the open market, for instance in the sale of precious stones or precious metals abroad, as the flight to investments in articles whose value is not subject to much fluctuation is much greater there than with us. Besides these sales abroad bring us foreign currency. If these prices were taken as a basis of evaluation here, this was done in order to be able to give a picture of the assets delivered; in general this evaluation is not authoritative. The value of the acquisition lies principally in the fact that such large quantities of urgently needed raw materials can thereby be gained and that, on the basis of the assets obtained, foreign currency can be brought in, with which raw materials can in turn be bought by Reich authorities.
[Sgd.] Globocnik SS Gruppenfuehrer and Lieut. General of Police.
Remember that these accounts are specifically from Aktion Reinhardt comprising six camps. The figures for the entire system are enormous.
Luckily the Germans were conscientious accountants. There are mountains of such documents still in existence. Tough for the deniers but then they'll say everyone of the many thousands are fake!
The important figures in the administration of this mass murder process were men whose names most will not have heard, Hermann Höfle, Christian Wirth, Richard Thomalla, Georg Michalsen, Hermann Worthoff, and Amon Göth.
Less we forget.
Steve
Last edited:
A4K
Colonel
Interesting Steve, thanks for posting.
- Thread starter
- #52
Thorlifter
Captain
Amon Goth I have heard of from the movie Schindler's List. The others I have not heard of but I will assume (before I look them up) they were also commandants of labor/death camps.
As a side note, I agree with both Mike and Steve. We all know the labor camps achieved the same end result as the death camps. Conditions were deplorable, people died, and those that couldn't work were shipped to the death camps for immediate termination. But I also agree that for historical accuracy that they should be labeled differently, as long as we and people are aware of the end result for both.
Mike, you made me do a lot of work over the 4th. Each item in that list you posted I looked up and did a little research on each. I read the book "Rape of Nanking" so I am familiar with that action, but most of the others I never heard of. Very interesting stuff.
As a side note, I agree with both Mike and Steve. We all know the labor camps achieved the same end result as the death camps. Conditions were deplorable, people died, and those that couldn't work were shipped to the death camps for immediate termination. But I also agree that for historical accuracy that they should be labeled differently, as long as we and people are aware of the end result for both.
Mike, you made me do a lot of work over the 4th. Each item in that list you posted I looked up and did a little research on each. I read the book "Rape of Nanking" so I am familiar with that action, but most of the others I never heard of. Very interesting stuff.
They were not all in charge of concentration camps,though some were.
They were all on Globocnik's "Aktion Reinhardt" staff and were responsible for everything from the building of the camps (Thomalla) to the organisation of deportations from Warsaw,Bialystok and Lublin ghettos and the actual murders themselves. Wirth for example was originally a policeman who was selected due to his experience murdering disabled people using poison gases in the earlier euthanasia programs.
They met a variety of fates,the Soviets executed a couple,Hofle hanged himself in jail and Wirth was killed by partisans. Michalsen,having been released uncharged by the British in 1945 was finally collared in 1961 living in Hamburg!
They are a typical bunch of nazis,mostly thugs of limited ability but willing to do just about anything to further their cause. Wirth even seems to have disconcerted fellow nazis with his uncompromising and unscrupulous attitudes.
They are a perfect illustration of Hannah Arendt's memorable phrase "the banality of evil".
Cheers
Steve
They were all on Globocnik's "Aktion Reinhardt" staff and were responsible for everything from the building of the camps (Thomalla) to the organisation of deportations from Warsaw,Bialystok and Lublin ghettos and the actual murders themselves. Wirth for example was originally a policeman who was selected due to his experience murdering disabled people using poison gases in the earlier euthanasia programs.
They met a variety of fates,the Soviets executed a couple,Hofle hanged himself in jail and Wirth was killed by partisans. Michalsen,having been released uncharged by the British in 1945 was finally collared in 1961 living in Hamburg!
They are a typical bunch of nazis,mostly thugs of limited ability but willing to do just about anything to further their cause. Wirth even seems to have disconcerted fellow nazis with his uncompromising and unscrupulous attitudes.
They are a perfect illustration of Hannah Arendt's memorable phrase "the banality of evil".
Cheers
Steve
mikewint
Captain
Thor, did not want to go into detail, this thread is not about the Japanese. My interest stems from 3 of my uncles who fought in the Pacific. One was killed on Guadicanal, one on Iwo. The third survived two Kamikazi on his ship. His hatred of the Japanese lasted all his life. He passed many stories on to me.
My dad and 6 of my uncles fought in WW2, all but one in the Pacific. Some kept their hatred of the Japanese alive till the last day of their life. My Dad was badly wounded at Guadalcanal, and was back home by late 1943. But to him, hate was a waste of emotion, I try to remember that.
Three of those uncles died in the war, so I never got to know them.
Three of those uncles died in the war, so I never got to know them.
