Germany goes with 6x15in Scharnhorst/Gneisenau development instead of B&T?

Admiral Beez · Jan 19, 2021

pbehn said:
It would be a fantastically strong force but it could lose Germany almost its whole navy in a single action.

It's true. But at that one point of time in summer 1941 the Germans would have an advantage in fast, heavy ships. Particularly as both HMS Illustrious and Formidable are out of service after damage in the Med.

What's the point of having these heavy ships if you won't use them? And to split up your concentrated force into penny packets and then sending these against your enemy's positions of relative strength goes against anything Sun Tzu tells us. I suppose there is the "fleet in being" option, put all these heavies into Norway to force RN allocartions.

pbehn · Jan 19, 2021

Admiral Beez said:
It's true. But at that one point of time in summer 1941 the Germans would have an advantage in fast, heavy ships. Particularly as both HMS Illustrious and Formidable are out of service after damage in the Med.

What's the point of having these heavy ships if you won't use them? And to split up your concentrated force into penny packets and then sending these against your enemy's positions of relative strength goes against anything Sun Tzu tells us. I suppose there is the "fleet in being" option, put all these heavies into Norway to force RN allocartions.

If the people who ordered these ships could see just a few years into the future they probably wouldn't have been built. Without any aircraft carriers and the growth in long distance aircraft with radar ships like Bismarck and Tirpitz were too hard to protect and therefore easy to lose. Such a force may have had a brief success but may have left a worse situation.

Admiral Beez · Jan 19, 2021

It's interesting, given their Italy ally and Vichy client state that Germany didn't operate any heavy warships in the Mediterranean.

pbehn · Jan 19, 2021

Admiral Beez said:
It's interesting, given their Italy ally and Vichy client state that Germany didn't operate any heavy warships in the Mediterranean.

Did any German ships go in or Italian ships go out of the Med?

Shortround6 · Jan 19, 2021

It's interesting, given their Italy ally and Vichy client state that Germany didn't operate any heavy warships in the Mediterranean.

pbehn said:
Did any German ships go in or Italian ships go out of the Med?

The Axis had more than enough trouble getting Italian submarines out past Gibraltar and German U-boats into the med past Gibraltar. Surface ships in operating condition would need a miracle of biblical proportions.

Admiral Beez · Jan 19, 2021

pbehn said:
Did any German ships go in or Italian ships go out of the Med?

I think one Italian was at Spithead in 1937, some great images here Fleet Review: Spithead 1937 World Naval Ships Forums Archive

SaparotRob · Jan 19, 2021

Admiral Beez said:
I think one Italian was at Spithead in 1937, some great images here Fleet Review: Spithead 1937 World Naval Ships Forums Archive

Great stuff! Two of my favorite airplanes are HMS Nelson and HMS Rodney.

Admiral Beez · Jan 19, 2021

SaparotRob said:
Great stuff! Two of my favorite airplanes are HMS Nelson and HMS Rodney.

Easy now, we're in the right place, lol.

Did you see the illustration of the FAA at Spithead? I think it's the 7th or 8th pic. All biplanes, and purporting to be cutting edge, whilst in Japan they're already flying Nates, Vals and Kates.

SaparotRob · Jan 19, 2021

Admiral Beez said:
Easy now, we're in the right place, lol.

Did you see the illustration of the FAA at Spithead? I think it's the 7th or 8th pic. All biplanes, and purporting to be cutting edge, whilst in Japan they're already flying Nates, Vals and Kates.

Yes I did. I can, however, imagine a youngster in Britain reading that paper in 1939 and marveling at those fearsome aeroplanes.

The Basket · Jan 20, 2021

The Italian navy did operate outside the Med but that would have been with ships operating from Italian east africa.

pbehn · Jan 20, 2021

Shortround6 said:
The Axis had more than enough trouble getting Italian submarines out past Gibraltar and German U-boats into the med past Gibraltar. Surface ships in operating condition would need a miracle of biblical proportions.

That's why I asked the question, Wiki says this about U Boats "The Mediterranean U-boat Campaign lasted approximately from 21 September 1941 to May 1944. The Kriegsmarine tried to isolate Gibraltar, Malta, and Suez and disrupt Britain's trade routes. More than sixty U-boats were sent to interdict Allied shipping in the Mediterranean Sea. Many of these U-boats were themselves attacked negotiating the Strait of Gibraltar controlled by Britain. Nine U-boats were sunk while attempting passage and ten more were damaged." But nothing about surface vessels, I cant remember anything but I don't read so much about Naval "stuff".

Admiral Beez · Jan 20, 2021

The Basket said:
The Italian navy did operate outside the Med but that would have been with ships operating from Italian east africa.

Yes, including a cruiser to China. But we're looking at battleship deployment.

Shortround6 · Jan 20, 2021

You could look at cruisers and/or destroyers, also. Once the war started any Italian surface ship would have to stay where it was, or close to home port.
Peace time training/good will/show the flag cruises are something else entirely. No problems fueling, getting food. No problems sitting out bad weather.
Nobody shooting at you

The strait of Gibraltar is only 8 miles wide. Trying to run surface ships through the british minefields and past the shore batteries might be possible but the any ship that survived would not be able to do more than limp to a port for repair.

The Basket · Jan 20, 2021

Italian ships were mainly Mediterranean based so that's good as always close to base. No need for logistical support or huge fuel tanks or water tanks or food stores on ships.

The query was Italian ships not Italian battleships.

Italian subs operated in the Atlantic.

SaparotRob · Jan 20, 2021

I believe that there may have been a RM submarine in the southwest Pacific. I did see a YouTube vid about the Italian Navy's involvement with the IJN. Can't remember too many details though.

pbehn · Jan 20, 2021

Admiral Beez said:
It's true. But at that one point of time in summer 1941 the Germans would have an advantage in fast, heavy ships. Particularly as both HMS Illustrious and Formidable are out of service after damage in the Med.

What's the point of having these heavy ships if you won't use them? And to split up your concentrated force into penny packets and then sending these against your enemy's positions of relative strength goes against anything Sun Tzu tells us. I suppose there is the "fleet in being" option, put all these heavies into Norway to force RN allocartions.

If Germany constructed a base in Norway with dry docks repair facilities and massive air defences it would have been a huge threat to Arctic and Atlantic convoys but it also needs carriers and is an operation that Germany just didn't have the resources for.

Admiral Beez · Jan 20, 2021

SaparotRob said:
I believe that there may have been a RM submarine in the southwest Pacific. I did see a YouTube vid about the Italian Navy's involvement with the IJN. Can't remember too many details though.

Details here Regia Marina in the Far East: 1940-1945 | Comando Supremo

Dash119 · Jan 20, 2021

SaparotRob said:
You guys know I wasn't serious about beefier seaplanes, right? It was just a lame response to post #25. I'd like to know more about DKM Bussard myself. I take it that ship was named for the scientist who came up with the concept of the Bussard ramjet?

I would have rated it as Funny, but I wasn't positive about your seriousness...

Admiral Beez · Jan 20, 2021

If we're pulling off the 12" turrets on the Scharnhorst class my vote is to tear them down to the Oberdeck (or lower to the Panzerdeck) and build aircraft carriers.

The Basket · Jan 22, 2021

The biggest downside to German Navy is what are you trying to achieve?

Unless we know that then we don't know what you need to build.

Defeating RN is total dumbass.

The IJN weren't exactly top in the thinking things through properly but they had an idea and ran with it.

Big torpedoes and night fighting and Yamato and so on.

If we know what the Germans were planning then we would know if Scharnhorst was a good idea. How would the German Navy defeat the RN? By sheer brute force? Magic wand? Jutland 2?

Germany goes with 6x15in Scharnhorst/Gneisenau development instead of B&T?

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