GrauGeist
Generalfeldmarschall zur Luftschiff Abteilung
The HeS 006 (HeS 30) also had a unique design, and held a great deal of promise. And it should have been a priority - but once again, the RLM shoots itself in the foot.
Zyzygie’s Mumbles and Rambles
- Thread starter Zyzygie
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- #82
There are a lot of "might have beens " in this saga, The German engineers made the greatest mistake by not developing the centrifugal in parallel with the axial compressor, as the British (and hence US) did.
They also should have developed Nimonic. Without that, jet engines were not going to be viable. The Soviets, who were also definitely no technological slouches, couldn't crack it themselves:
From Wikipedia
By 1946, Soviet designers were finding it impossible to perfect the German-designed HeS-011 axial-flow jet engine, and new airframe designs from Mikoyan were threatening to outstrip development of the jet engines needed to power them. Soviet aviation minister Mikhail Khrunichev and aircraft designer Alexander Sergeyevich Yakovlev suggested to Joseph Stalin that the USSR buy advanced jet engines from the British. Stalin is said to have replied: "What fool will sell us his secrets?"[1] However, he gave his assent to the proposal and Artem Mikoyan, engine designer Vladimir Klimov, and others traveled to the United Kingdom to request the engines. To Stalin's amazement, the British Labour government and its pro-Soviet Minister of Trade, Sir Stafford Cripps, were perfectly willing to provide technical information and a license to manufacture the Rolls-Royce Nene centrifugal-flow jet engine, a move which even Russian sources have mocked. This engine was reverse-engineered and produced as the Soviet Klimov RD-45 jet engine, subsequently incorporated into the MiG-15.[1] (Rolls-Royce later attempted to claim £207 million in license fees, but without success.)[citation needed]
Ascent
Senior Airman
Criminal charges should have been brought against someone for that stupidity.
I still can't believe the government allowed it.
I still can't believe the government allowed it.
In fact those were claims, the first one, the Mossie on 26 July wasn't even hit but lost outer part of its door because of hard evasing manoeuvres, it landed safely in Italy and was eventually lost in 1950 off Malta.
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- #85
I think I read about this incident, but I thought it lost about a metre of its wing on the initial attack.
But I would guess that the Mosquito was probably an unarmed reconnaissance version, in which case, the ME 262, if had any claims to being a dogfighter, should have eaten it for breakfast. On the contrary, the Mosquito evaded several more attack passes and eventually lost itself in some cloud cover.
It was a No.544 Squadron PR Mosquito flown by Flt.Lt. A E Wall, with Plt.Off. A S Lobban as his navigator. It left RAF Benson on a sortie to Munich and the incident with Schreiber's Me 262 occurred in the target area near Munich at about 29,000 feet.
Wall evaded no fewer than five attacks from astern before Schreiber changed his tactic and delivered a climbing attack from below. This allowed Wall to dive for the clouds, and it was at this time that a loud bang from the underside of the Mosquito was heard. The outer hatch had been torn off, confirmed by Lobban. Unsure of the extent of the damage Wall headed for friendly territory, eventually landing at Fermo airfield in Italy. Here it was discovered that the hatch had torn free and struck the port tailplane as it went. There is no reported damage to the wings.
Alfred Schreiber claimed the Mosquito as Ekdo. 262's first combat success, but like many claims on all sides it was incorrect.
The well flown Mosquito had succeeded in out manoeuvring the jet on several occasions, probably because Schreiber lost the element of surprise when he did not engage the Mosquito on his first pass. Wall assumed he was making sure that he identified his potential target correctly, but we will never know for sure.
The Mosquito is certainly NOT the most manoeuvrable of Allied aircraft !!!!
There are any number of accounts of piston engine fighters evading attacks from Me 262s, sometimes more than one. The Me 262 simply could not manoeuvre with them whilst keeping its one advantage, speed. It's speed allowed it to re-position for attack at will, but once the element of surprise was lost a well flown adversary could repeatedly avoid successive attacks.
Cheers
Steve
Incidentally Schreiber's August 2nd Spitfire claim is just that, a claim. Maybe he had a 'sore throat'.
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- #88
There is a good account of the Mosquito incident at British airmen's first encounter with a jet aircraft – 26 July 1944 | Abroad in the Yard
"...Not only had the enemy aircraft stayed with them, it came closer still. And then it began firing its cannons. Tracers streaked past the Mosquito, inches above the cockpit canopy.
"Break!" yelled Lobban.
Wall backed off the throttles, and swung left. The attacker flashed by, and as it did, they got their first good look at it.
"The bloody thing's got no props!" Lobban exclaimed.
Indeed it hadn't. The enemy aircraft was a low-winged monoplane with two large engine pods, and a configuration unlike any they had seen before.
The strange aircraft was now turning towards them. It didn't seem to be all that manoeuvrable, perhaps because of its enormous speed. At least, it seemed to require a great amount of space to turn about.
Wall knew that if he could turn more tightly than the other aircraft, he might be able to keep it from getting a clean shot at them. He added power and reversed course, heading directly towards it.
The two aircraft began closing on each other at a combined speed of nearly 1,000 mph. It was like flying towards a screaming bullet. The enemy aircraft fired again, but was not lined up well enough to hit them. At the last possible moment, Wall flicked the ailerons and sent the Mosquito past the attacker. Then he continued to turn hard, G-forces pushing him deeper into his seat.
As he'd hoped, it took longer for the enemy aircraft to swing around. Again, Wall headed directly towards it. And again he flew by before fire from its guns could strike the Mosquito. But on the next pass his opponent made a smart move, beginning his turn only a fraction of a second after Wall began his. Then he dove, and climbed toward the British aircraft from underneath, firing his canons as he came.
There was a loud bang and the Mosquito lurched and shuddered. Wall struggled to maintain control, but the aircraft was still flying. The only response he could think of was to try another dive. He pushed the stick forward, and as he did, he caught sight of cloud cover below.
He raced downward, and an instant later was inside the cloud's solid white sanctuary.
Wall then began circling, so as to remain inside the protective vapour. There was considerable turbulence, but it was infinitely preferable to explosive cannon shells punching more holes in the aircraft...."
"Break!" yelled Lobban.
Wall backed off the throttles, and swung left. The attacker flashed by, and as it did, they got their first good look at it.
"The bloody thing's got no props!" Lobban exclaimed.
Indeed it hadn't. The enemy aircraft was a low-winged monoplane with two large engine pods, and a configuration unlike any they had seen before.
The strange aircraft was now turning towards them. It didn't seem to be all that manoeuvrable, perhaps because of its enormous speed. At least, it seemed to require a great amount of space to turn about.
Wall knew that if he could turn more tightly than the other aircraft, he might be able to keep it from getting a clean shot at them. He added power and reversed course, heading directly towards it.
The two aircraft began closing on each other at a combined speed of nearly 1,000 mph. It was like flying towards a screaming bullet. The enemy aircraft fired again, but was not lined up well enough to hit them. At the last possible moment, Wall flicked the ailerons and sent the Mosquito past the attacker. Then he continued to turn hard, G-forces pushing him deeper into his seat.
As he'd hoped, it took longer for the enemy aircraft to swing around. Again, Wall headed directly towards it. And again he flew by before fire from its guns could strike the Mosquito. But on the next pass his opponent made a smart move, beginning his turn only a fraction of a second after Wall began his. Then he dove, and climbed toward the British aircraft from underneath, firing his canons as he came.
There was a loud bang and the Mosquito lurched and shuddered. Wall struggled to maintain control, but the aircraft was still flying. The only response he could think of was to try another dive. He pushed the stick forward, and as he did, he caught sight of cloud cover below.
He raced downward, and an instant later was inside the cloud's solid white sanctuary.
Wall then began circling, so as to remain inside the protective vapour. There was considerable turbulence, but it was infinitely preferable to explosive cannon shells punching more holes in the aircraft...."
There's god and then there's good. This caught my attention.
"There was considerable turbulence, but it was infinitely preferable to explosive cannon shells punching more holes in the aircraft."
As far as I can tell from the contemporary reports the Mosquito was not hit by any cannon shells
A Mosquito could survive being hit and return home. After the loss of several PR machines suspicions grew that the new German jet was indeed operational and being used as a fighter. On 8th August 1944 a Mosquito of No. 60 (SAAF) Squadron, flown by Captain Saloman Pienaar with his navigator Lieutenant Archie Lockhart-Ross was despatched from San Severo, Italy, to photograph the airfield at Leipheim. As they made the first photographic pass over the airfield (capturing an Me 262 taking off) they were attacked by another Me 262, being hit in the port wing, the strike blowing the aileron away. A second attack also scored hits. Despite the damage Pienaar evaded another 10 attacks over the next 30 minutes when the Me 262, presumably short of fuel, broke of the engagement. Pienaar managed to fly the Mosquito using just the rudder and full starboard aileron, the port engine being uncontrollabe, the 400 miles back to San Severino.
During the engagement the Mosquito's cameras had been running and the developed film revealed a clear shot of the Me 262 turning below and ahead of the Mosquito, confirming that the type was being use in a fighter role by the Luftwaffe.
Pienaar and Lockhard-Ross both received DFCs for their exploits.
Cheers
Steve
"There was considerable turbulence, but it was infinitely preferable to explosive cannon shells punching more holes in the aircraft."
As far as I can tell from the contemporary reports the Mosquito was not hit by any cannon shells
A Mosquito could survive being hit and return home. After the loss of several PR machines suspicions grew that the new German jet was indeed operational and being used as a fighter. On 8th August 1944 a Mosquito of No. 60 (SAAF) Squadron, flown by Captain Saloman Pienaar with his navigator Lieutenant Archie Lockhart-Ross was despatched from San Severo, Italy, to photograph the airfield at Leipheim. As they made the first photographic pass over the airfield (capturing an Me 262 taking off) they were attacked by another Me 262, being hit in the port wing, the strike blowing the aileron away. A second attack also scored hits. Despite the damage Pienaar evaded another 10 attacks over the next 30 minutes when the Me 262, presumably short of fuel, broke of the engagement. Pienaar managed to fly the Mosquito using just the rudder and full starboard aileron, the port engine being uncontrollabe, the 400 miles back to San Severino.
During the engagement the Mosquito's cameras had been running and the developed film revealed a clear shot of the Me 262 turning below and ahead of the Mosquito, confirming that the type was being use in a fighter role by the Luftwaffe.
Pienaar and Lockhard-Ross both received DFCs for their exploits.
Cheers
Steve
Peter Gunn
Master Sergeant
The stupidity of politicians has never ceased to amaze/disgust me, not to mention how gullible they can be. What were these guys thinking? "Hey, let's give this technology to the Soviets, it'll never come back to bite us in the a$$..."
Well, if nothing else, it gave the F-86's plenty of things to shoot at a few years later.
GrauGeist
Generalfeldmarschall zur Luftschiff Abteilung
Yes, I did include the first verified encounter between an Allied type and a Me262 to start the timeline. It also showed that the operation learning curve for the Me262 pilots was just starting and would improve as time went by. To add to that, the first operational Me262s were based out of Ekdo 262, which was a test and training unit. It wouldn't be until October 1944, that Kommando Nowotny would be established as an operational unit, but even still, a pilot with Ekdo Lechfield even managed to score a victory shortly after Kdo Nowotney went operational.
If you go back and read my list, I stated that these "claims" were for downed or damaged beyond repair (except for the Mossie on 6 July 1944) excluded bombers, ground kills and probables in order to show that the Me262 wasn't just a sitting duck or dedicated solely to intercepting "unmoving targets".
The list I sourced was from Colin Heaton's works and not just a list I pulled out of my hat.
I find it very interesting that the general consensus seems to be that the Me262 was a pile of garbage and didn't pose an actual threat to Allied aircraft (of any sort).
Glider
Captain
Count me out of that consensus. The 262 and the Arado 234 posed a very serious threat to the allies for obviously different reasons. With a little more time to sort out the reliability and get the numbers up, life would have got very interesting very quickly.
GrauGeist
Generalfeldmarschall zur Luftschiff Abteilung
We have the luxury of sitting back, 70 years later and making observations and picking which type "was the best, worst", etc. but when the Me262 first appeared over the skies of Europe, the Allies were extremely concerned.
When the Me262 attacked bombers with devastating results, it literally scared the sh!t out of them. It moved too fast to train the defensive armament on them, it's cannon shells ripped the aircraft apart and they were at a loss to figure out a way to counter this new threat.
It would take a little time to discover and exploit it's weaknesses, which we have the ability to pick up a book and read about - they didn't have this information at the time.
That some people can make claims that the 30mm cannon weren't effective or that it couldn't turn a tight circle or it didn't have enough range, flight time or whatnot stands in stark contrast to how the Allies viewed this machine in 1944.
When the Me262 attacked bombers with devastating results, it literally scared the sh!t out of them. It moved too fast to train the defensive armament on them, it's cannon shells ripped the aircraft apart and they were at a loss to figure out a way to counter this new threat.
It would take a little time to discover and exploit it's weaknesses, which we have the ability to pick up a book and read about - they didn't have this information at the time.
That some people can make claims that the 30mm cannon weren't effective or that it couldn't turn a tight circle or it didn't have enough range, flight time or whatnot stands in stark contrast to how the Allies viewed this machine in 1944.
I don't believe that at all. The Me 262 was a formidable aircraft. It would have made a bomber destroyer par excellence if deployed in numbers. It could have been a great reconnaissance aircraft. It could also have made an effective fighter bomber, eventually, not bombing from 4,000m as was tried around D-Day.
What it could never have been was a dog fighter, and I disagree with any claim that it could have been. It could and did destroy piston engined fighters, usually, like everyone else, by using surprise. Even with the ability to engage and disengage a target at will, it still struggled to shoot down a well flown adversary. Whilst that adversary could avoid the attacks of the Me 262, it is important to remember that it had almost no chance of itself getting a shot at the Me 262, unless the pilot of the jet made a bad mistake. In many encounters of this type the factors that saved the piston engined aircraft were usually luck, as in finding cloud in which to hide, or the chronically short endurance of the Me 262, which was soon forced to break off the engagement and head for home.
The Allies would not have been aware of just how severe a limitation the Me 262s range was when it first appeared, nor would they have been aware of the engine problems. They soon discovered its vulnerability on take off and landing though.
It was not invulnerable, many were shot down, even Galland was hit and very nearly shot down, making a forced landing at Riem to finish what became his last flight of the war.
Cheers
Steve
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soulezoo
Senior Airman
In the latest edition (Jan 2017) of Air Force Magazine, there is an article regarding rounding up the German engineers. Hans J.P. von Ohain was at the top of that list. His first ever engine was installed and flew in a He 178 in 1939. Von Ohain remained a U.S. government employee working as chief scientist of the Aero Propulsion Lab at Wright-Patterson AFB until he retired in 1975.
soulezoo
Senior Airman
In the AF magazine article I referenced in my last post, they discussed the Me262 being the top priority in capturing and bringing back to the States (Operation Lusty). One pilot that did so, Bob Strobell (who retrieved Me262's from Lechfeld air base), mentioned that one of the greatest qualities of the Me262 was ease of maintenance and that he "knew for a fact" that a jet engine could be changed in one half hour in a Me262.
Istill doubt that they are claims, IIRC the first loss to Me 262 confirmed by Allied data was the 8 Aug 44 Mossie, the 3rd on the list. I don't have time to go through your list but when you combared it to the info given by Drgondog 7 years ago, they definitely seems to be claims, see: Which fighter brought the biggest new advantage when introduced? and his following two messages.
Juha
It certainly "flamed-out" for Rolls-Royce.
According to James Hamilton-Paterson ("Empire of the Skies" 2010 pp 157) it was Rolls-Royce in 1945 who made the "extraordinary request" for permission to sell their engines to the Russians.
One engineer totally opposed to the sale was Rod Banks...
Francis Rodwell Banks - Wikipedia
yulzari
Staff Sergeant
Re the Nene sale to the Soviet Union. From memory so definitely 'IIRC' the Soviets were offering a large pile of foreign currency of which Britain was desperately short (hence the civilian food ration having been reduced to below the wartime level).
Some useful data? can it be right?
...Loss figures from III./EJG 2, KG 51, and JG 7 were comparable. A comprehensive technical report by the technical officer of III. Gruppe, Oberinspektor Grote, compiled on March 3, 1945, listed the following causes for 42 aircraft losses:
pilot error 13
technical faults 19
enemy action 10
See p.89
Manfred Boehme. JG 7: The World's First Jet Fighter Unit 1944/1945. Schiffer Publishing, 1992.
This is an old note which I can't verify. It could be suspect.
...Loss figures from III./EJG 2, KG 51, and JG 7 were comparable. A comprehensive technical report by the technical officer of III. Gruppe, Oberinspektor Grote, compiled on March 3, 1945, listed the following causes for 42 aircraft losses:
pilot error 13
technical faults 19
enemy action 10
See p.89
Manfred Boehme. JG 7: The World's First Jet Fighter Unit 1944/1945. Schiffer Publishing, 1992.
This is an old note which I can't verify. It could be suspect.
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