Gneisenau and Scharnhorst in the Mediterranean?

[Glider]

Actually the main problem for the Italian fleet was fuel oil, the lack of which inhibited the conduct of operations throughout the time the fleet was operating with the Axis.

They certainly had a shortage of fuel oil but they did fail to press home an advantage when they had one.

Really ! How many landings and take offs from a carrier had they completed ?

My thoughts exactly. USN and RN pilots had at least been trained for carriers and had to do a number of carrier landings before shipping to their combat units.

 

[vikingBerserker]

My thoughts exactly. USN and RN pilots had at least been trained for carriers and had to do a number of carrier landings before shipping to their combat units.

As odd and absolutely insane as it might be, that was not always the case with the USN and Marines and this has popped up at least 3 times in the past 2 months worth of books I've read. If you want the source let me know and I'll go dig it up.

 

[parsifal]

who else, other than the FAA at this stage of the war, was capable of hitting a fast moving ship in the half light of twighlight in conditions of poor weather and rough seas. Id hazard a guess and claim....no-one...

 

[Glider]

As odd and absolutely insane as it might be, that was not always the case with the USN and Marines and this has popped up at least 3 times in the past 2 months worth of books I've read. If you want the source let me know and I'll go dig it up.

I would appreciate that if possible, but its not desperately urgent. I thought the USN used a couple of conversions one was called the Wolverine but I cannot remember the other. There was a third ship that also helped as did (I think) the Ranger later on in the war

 

[GrauGeist]

USS Wolverine (IX-64) and USS Sable (IX-81)

The Wolverine had a wooden (Douglas Fir) flight deck while Sable had a steel flight deck

 

[vikingBerserker]

I would appreciate that if possible, but its not desperately urgent. I thought the USN used a couple of conversions one was called the Wolverine but I cannot remember the other. There was a third ship that also helped as did (I think) the Ranger later on in the war

Certainly, more than happy to.

 

[RCAFson]

now that is a far more realistic suggestion. A carrier battle between the Graf Zeppelin, and the Ark Royal....very interesting

Ark Royal has a nominal air group of 63 aircraft, Graf Zeppelin 38 (estimated). Neither carrier is likely to have a fully authorised CAG, so we should just run through a hypothetical, on the assumption that both have their authorised complements

The first element of the equation to consider is the likelihood of GZ being completed. Unlikely. it had been planned that she would be commissioned at the end of 1940, but in September 1940, a decision was made not to complete her. The Germans still had not solved the catapult problems they were having, neither did they really have an effective air torpedo as yet, though they could have utilised some of the excellent Italian torpedoes if they could swallow their pride to do so.

On April 29 1940, Raeder recorded "the fuhrer is of the opinion that aircraft carriers with internal combustion engines will not be usable beyond this war". By May, all work had stopped on the carrier, and by June, the germans had already begun stripping the hull out to use such things as they could. However, German interst in her did oscillate, alot. In july all this backward movement was stopped, and the decision was taken, briefly to have her made rady for sea trials, less her cvatapults and aircraft handling equipment.

In my mind the most likley time that Germany may have changed its mind on might be after Taranto. But assuming the Germans were more appreciative of carrier warfare than they were, lets assume they moved to completion on the basis of the prewar arrangements, and not allow themselves to be deviated by doubt about the usage of this carrier. We need to assume also that the Germans could overcome some of the catapult difficulties and aircraft handling difficulties that they faced. GZ still would not realisitcally be able to launch a full deckload given of aircaft given the very limited endurance of her fighter component. With an authorised air component of 12 Me 109s and 26-28 Ju87Ts (Im assuming work on the Fi 167 torpedo carrier would be abandoned, it would not have been ready by March 1941 anyway), the Germans never assumed or planned on escorting their Ju87s to any meaningful extent.

Assuming the Germans had gone to sea with the SH, GN and GZ in January, there is a high risk this force would suffer a fairly high attrition rate whilst at sea. There is of course some reasoning to say that the TG might position itself near Brest on its return, to receive replacement aircraft. A cruise into the Atlantic for the GZ might give the aircrews and maintenance teams a bit of a chance to work up properly, but it is unrealistic to think that these guys could be comparable to the British Carrier. Its a similar situation to what faced Nelson 140 years earlier. His crews had tirelssly trained and deployed for the whole duration, whilst the opposing Napoleonic fleet was completely green. British gunnery at trafalgar was deadly accurate in comparison, and about twice the ROF. In this latter day Trafalgar, British launch rates would easily be at least double, accident rates a fraction, range superior, ordinance superior, night capable crews, and crews trained to near perfection as far as accuracy was concerned. Witness their perfomance 2 months later over the bismarck.

The Ark Royal had an actual air group of about 24 Swordfish and 12 Fulmars, though she frequently was carrying another 24 Hurricanes on her decks in Malta relief operations. When operating against the italian fleet in November, she had 12 Fulmars and 20. There were no losses in November and the carrier returned to Gibraltar for further training and receival of additional aircraft. Ive not been able to determine the types just at this stage. In early January the older carrier Eagle was detachewd to the South Atlantic and AR sent to attack Sardinia and Genoa. 24 Swordfish were available for that attack, dont know how many Fulmars. in february the British returned, using nearly 30 Swordfish in strikes again targeting Sardinian infrastructure. Against the bismarck in May, the AR flew off 10 aircraft for Search, retained 4 for ASW, and flew off 14 Swordfish against the great batleship. There were 14 Fulmars embarked as far as I am aware.

So the best estimate I could offer in a realistic scenario, the GZ CAG as follws......probably about 6 Me 109s, and maybe 18-20 Ju87s, versus 14 Fulmars and 30 Swordfish

Assuming the British are the aggressor group, the Germans would have to maintain standing patrols, they might have either 1 or two 109s available, depending on how lucky they were. They would have 2 refuelling and rearming, and 2 either just landing or l returning for lack of fuel. The biggest single strike the Brits had mounted to that point from a single carrier was 16 aircraft. If I were the British flight leader, I would split my Swordfish into four separate elements, wach attacking from one of the four compass points. There would be no escort....the british tended to rely on the cover of darkness to protect their atrike aircraft. The most likely time of attack would be either just before dawn, or just after dusk. Reduced visibility and the ability of the Swordfish to come in at wavetop height would make them a very hard targert for the German fighters, as was shown hgistorically on many occasions. If sea conditions are rough, the stringbags would be ducking in and out of wave cover all the time making it harder than expected for the emils to get a clear shot. There would no diving attacks at this altitude and the fighters are probably forced to operate at reduced speeds to conserve fuel. minimal advance warning because of the very low approach altitudes. a good chance of bagging a carrier in my opinion.

now for my opinion on the Ju87 attacks on the Ark. Allowing for searches, possibly 10 Ju87s available for attack. Would almost certainly need to attack in daylight,and at an approach altitude of about 10K. more time for the Fulmars to scramble. Illustrious had detected the attacking stukas there with about 20 minutes to spare, and with operatinal Fulmars, had managed to get 6 airborne. This was a surprise attack by the germans, and the 6 airborne fighters are believed to have shot down 5 of the attacking raiders, however air defence was generally disjointed and poor. About 30 stukas attacked the carrier and secured 6 hits or near misses. Extrapolating from their, one could expect 2 hits on the Ark Royal . Is that enough to destroy her? I am doubtful of that. Likely ordinance is a 500lb bomb for each Stuka, as the 1000 lbers reduce the range too much , and 2 500 lbs hits is not enough to sink a modern carrier.

I think you may have confused Ark Royal with Illustrious. Ark Royal typically carried 54-60 aircraft:

1939-40 26 Fairey Swordfish, 24 Blackburn Skuas. 1940-41 30 Fairey Swordfish, 12 Blackburn Skuas, 12 Fairey Fulmars. 1941 36 Fairey Swordfish, 18 Fairey Fulmars.
HMS Ark Royal aircraft carrier profile. Aircraft Carrier Database of the Fleet Air Arm Archive 1939-1945

Note that the Skua would have been a good counter to the Stuka, in terms of destroying Graf Zepplin's flight deck.

Another factor is that having S&G in the Med would have allowed the RN to concentrate more ships in the Med, since there would be less need for forces to cover breakouts into the Atlantic from Norway or France.

 

[GrauGeist]

Another factor is that having S&G in the Med would have allowed the RN to concentrate more ships in the Med, since there would be less need for forces to cover breakouts into the Atlantic from Norway or France.

The need would still be there, the Bismark and Tirpitz would still remain a real threat if allowed to get loose...

 

[RCAFson]

The need would still be there, the Bismark and Tirpitz would still remain a real threat if allowed to get loose...

Yes, but Bismarck was in Germany while Tirpitz was not ready until the fall of 1941. This means that the RN and RAF no longer have to cover the French Atlantic ports. The RN subs and RAF bombers that were covering/attacking these ports can be retasked to cover the approaches to Norway and exits to the Baltic(and even make attacks on B&T in the Baltic), while some of the subs may be redeployed to the Med as well, along with additional aircraft.

If S&G don't make their winter cruise into the Atlantic, it greatly eases the strain on the RN and releases a lot of heavy ships that were covering convoys.

 

[delcyros]

(...)

I beg to differ on the details.

The air complement of GZ would have eintailed 43 operational aircraft and requirements called for 50% reserves. These reserves are not included in the number of op. A/C and were expected to be stowed knocked down in parts, only to be assembled in order to replace operational losses. This makes for a total outfit of 64 A/C.
This number appears also to be more in agreement with the hangar area which is given with 5,420m^2 distributed over two hangar levels as compared to about 5,000m^2 for ARK ROYAL.

Unlikely. it had been planned that she would be commissioned at the end of 1940, but in September 1940, a decision was made not to complete her.The Germans still had not solved the catapult problems they were having,

One should make mention of the fact that the dock used for GZ fitting out was needed for repairs on SCHARNHORST torpedo damages in 1940. Technically, none of the A/C really required the catapult to take off. It was a nice thing to have, particularely for the Bf-109T allowing to take off with retracted gears but not necessary for operation. It appears very reasonable for me to assume that GZ would have been operational by early 1941 had the will be there to do so.

On April 29 1940, Raeder recorded "the fuhrer is of the opinion that aircraft carriers with internal combustion engines will not be usable beyond this war".

True, however, with "carriers with internal combustion engines" Raeder meant not GZ but a new generation of Diesel engine driven carriers planned, whiches production was unlikely in the war. GZ was steam turbine engine driven and almost finished.

GZ still would not realisitcally be able to launch a full deckload given of aircaft given the very limited endurance of her fighter component. With an authorised air component of 12 Me 109s and 26-28 Ju87Ts (Im assuming work on the Fi 167 torpedo carrier would be abandoned, it would not have been ready by March 1941 anyway), the Germans never assumed or planned on escorting their Ju87s to any meaningful extent.

Fi-167 was already in procurement. Only fourteen Fi-167 were made but all left the low priority assembly plant in 1940. They would be the primary asset of the carrier. 20 Fi-167A + 13 Ju-87 + 10 Bf-109T. The Fi-167 could take off from an immobile platform with max. payload. The Luftwaffe naval air arm didn�t yet existed but Ju-87 of GZ�s carrier strike group actually indeed managed to sink a polish DD in 1939 while still in the training status.

Reserves would be 10 Fi-167, 6 ju-87 and 5 Bf-109T to replace operational losses. Fi-167 and Ju-87 are benign low speed realm A/C, particularely suited for carrier ops. The Bf-109T is not so but modified heavily to approach this function (more than the Seafire).
take off procedure was for an full strength air strike first to launch
6 x Bf-109T on catapult trollies in short ssuccession
then to launch 12 Ju-87 dive bombers with 500 or 250kg bombs on catapult trollies and then to launch
12 Fi-167 torpedo carrying or bomb carrying A/C in conventional rolling deck launch
1 Ju-87 air group commander plane was launched last conventionally (typically not armed with bombs)

A normal strength attack would be
6 x Ju-87 dive bomnbers on catapult
12 x Fi-167 torpedo bombers on catapult
4 x Bf-109T in rolling deck launch (only if air opposition was anticipated)
The remaining A/C, four Bf-109 would remain for air defense, 6 Fi-167 were considered not usable due to previous search flights and provide Ersatz fighter if needed.

What is probably also important, the Fi-167 may carry a 2,204lbs bomb, which is a ship killer and the A/C are generally high performance. Against Swordfish in daylight, even Ju-87 can be used as Ersatz fighter. The Fulmar against Bf-109T is quite one sided, too.

Generally I agree that in terms of carrier operations, GZ would be hard pressed against a night Swordfish attack. I generally also guess that GZ would be better suited in terms of providing attack against convois in the North Atlantic than operating in the confines of the Mediterranean, where land air bases are the primary asset.

 

[RCAFson]

I beg to differ on the details.

The air complement of GZ would have eintailed 43 operational aircraft and requirements called for 50% reserves. These reserves are not included in the number of op. A/C and were expected to be stowed knocked down in parts, only to be assembled in order to replace operational losses. This makes for a total outfit of 64 A/C.
This number appears also to be more in agreement with the hangar area which is given with 5,420m^2 distributed over two hangar levels as compared to about 5,000m^2 for ARK ROYAL.



One should make mention of the fact that the dock used for GZ fitting out was needed for repairs on SCHARNHORST torpedo damages in 1940. Technically, none of the A/C really required the catapult to take off. It was a nice thing to have, particularely for the Bf-109T allowing to take off with retracted gears but not necessary for operation. It appears very reasonable for me to assume that GZ would have been operational by early 1941 had the will be there to do so.


True, however, with "carriers with internal combustion engines" Raeder meant not GZ but a new generation of Diesel engine driven carriers planned, whiches production was unlikely in the war. GZ was steam turbine engine driven and almost finished.



Fi-167 was already in procurement. Only fourteen Fi-167 were made but all left the low priority assembly plant in 1940. They would be the primary asset of the carrier. 20 Fi-167A + 13 Ju-87 + 10 Bf-109T. The Fi-167 could take off from an immobile platform with max. payload. The Luftwaffe naval air arm didn�t yet existed but Ju-87 of GZ�s carrier strike group actually indeed managed to sink a polish DD in 1939 while still in the training status.

Reserves would be 10 Fi-167, 6 ju-87 and 5 Bf-109T to replace operational losses. Fi-167 and Ju-87 are benign low speed realm A/C, particularely suited for carrier ops. The Bf-109T is not so but modified heavily to approach this function (more than the Seafire).
take off procedure was for an full strength air strike first to launch
6 x Bf-109T on catapult trollies in short ssuccession
then to launch 12 Ju-87 dive bombers with 500 or 250kg bombs on catapult trollies and then to launch
12 Fi-167 torpedo carrying or bomb carrying A/C in conventional rolling deck launch
1 Ju-87 air group commander plane was launched last conventionally (typically not armed with bombs)

A normal strength attack would be
6 x Ju-87 dive bomnbers on catapult
12 x Fi-167 torpedo bombers on catapult
4 x Bf-109T in rolling deck launch (only if air opposition was anticipated)
The remaining A/C, four Bf-109 would remain for air defense, 6 Fi-167 were considered not usable due to previous search flights and provide Ersatz fighter if needed.

What is probably also important, the Fi-167 may carry a 2,204lbs bomb, which is a ship killer and the A/C are generally high performance. Against Swordfish in daylight, even Ju-87 can be used as Ersatz fighter. The Fulmar against Bf-109T is quite one sided, too.

Generally I agree that in terms of carrier operations, GZ would be hard pressed against a night Swordfish attack. I generally also guess that GZ would be better suited in terms of providing attack against convois in the North Atlantic than operating in the confines of the Mediterranean, where land air bases are the primary asset.

The FAA also had the Skua and this was carried by Ark Royal in combination with the Fulmar in early 1941, while the Swordfish could also be used as a divebomber. Assuming that both sides make simultaneous strikes, it seem very likely that an FAA strike of say 12 Skuas and 12 Swordfish would get through GZ's CAP since, AFAIK, the KM had no AW radars in this time frame, while 12 Fulmars directed by radar GCI would be a major problem for a KM strike.

Air combat is generally won by the side that sees their opponent first and has an altitude advantage, rather than being a simple comparison of performance stats.

 

[parsifal]

I think you may have confused Ark Royal with Illustrious. Ark Royal typically carried 54-60 aircraft:

Note that the Skua would have been a good counter to the Stuka, in terms of destroying Graf Zepplin's flight deck.

Another factor is that having S&G in the Med would have allowed the RN to concentrate more ships in the Med, since there would be less need for forces to cover breakouts into the Atlantic from Norway or France.

No, im not confusing the two ships. The complements shown on the FAA website I am well aware of, but Ark Royal seldom operated to her full capacity. She was in such heavy use, that there was hardly ever a time when the full deckload of aircaft were available. Just as an example, at the beginning of March, 5 Swordfish were detached from the CAG and staged through to Malta, so the numbers dropped from the authorised 36 Swordfish to 31. However soon after this mission she embarked on strikes over Sardinia, with a maximum strike size of 24 aircraft.

Like all carriers, she could seldom count on full availability of her aircraft, to do that she would have needed a big rest and refit, and that was just not going to happen.

At the same time, the GZ could also hardly count on a full deckload being available. Ostensibly she had an aircraft capacity of 40, but one could not expect a full complement, given types like the 109 embarked, even after just a few days of operations. During Torch, in the follwing year, Seafires operating off the Eascort Carriers started operations with something like 90 Seafires operational, 2 days later this was reduced to less than 40, for the unfortunate Seafire the problem was the lack of wind and the short decks, and the green-ness of the crews, something they had a lot of problem with.

 

[parsifal]

You are both making the mistake that both carriers would have a full complement. highly unlikley in both cases. Most likley deployment of the GZ would be part of the Scharnhorst and Gneisenau sortie into the Atlantic and returning to Brest in March. A two month deployment is going to decimate the GZs CAG. If the TG was to try and force the straits, the logical thing to do would be to swing past Brest first to take on replacement aircraft. Problem of course is training replacement aircrew. With just one carrier, and that carrier being used in active operations, the germans are going to have a very hard time replacing lost pilots. Maybe in that two months they might acquire another 10 pilots that were carrier capable, but thats a guess, and probably very ambitios. The RN in 1939 acquired 32 pilots carrier capable, and in 1940, it was just under 100. This KM would have been akin to the IJN as far as securing pilots.

As far as air groups are concerned, the Germans did plan to use Fi167 in the prewar plans, but didnt in the 1942 revival. The type was never declared fully operational though I am not really aware of any major issues with it. The Rumanians acquired them eventually, and quite liked them. Ive assumed however, that the germans would cut corners and not have them, so as to get the air groups ready earlier. What the Germans planned to do, and actually could do is two different things. ive assumed they trim back their plans for the sir group, so as to at least get something on the carrier and working in time.

As far as Fulmars not being competitive, thats a claim oftenmade, and not really ever investigated. In the whole of 1941, the grand toal of 3 Fulmars were lost to air combat, none of them to Me 109s, despite having clashed with them on at least 5 occasions that I know of. In those scraps, the germans lost 2 Me 109s to zero Fulmars.

In a dight like this, the Fulmars, as they always did, would basically ignore the 109s,and go for the bombers. Over the Illustrious, a badly co-ordinated fighter defence, saw initially 4 Fulmars shoot down 6 Ju87s. Illustrious was hit 6 times and did not sink. Once the CAG got its act together, the germans were simply unable to penetrate the screen, Me109 or not. Fulmar was an ideal bomber destroyer, and in that role the 109 would have been hard pressed to stop it. Likely the strike would be outnumbered 14 fighters to 4 (if any) with the Fulmars having the benefit of three times the endurance of the 109.

As far as the other details, I am very appreciative of the better details you are providing. Very interesting and much appreciated