greatest shot allies and axis

Discussion in 'Aviation' started by mike siggins, Mar 28, 2013.

  1. mike siggins

    mike siggins Member

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    who do you think was the best shot of the war the most planes shot down with the least ammo used
     
  2. tyrodtom

    tyrodtom Well-Known Member

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    I heard of a account of some kills Hanms-Joachin Marseille made with some pretty impressive bulletr counts, but other than that there's no records of any way for anybody to keep track of something. Not many aircraft had a way of keeping track of bullets expended. Though the Bf109 did. I doubt even a Bf109 pilot would have the spare time in combat to note down how many rounds he shot at each aircraft.
    For most of the others, you had enough ammo or you didn't. I doubt many pilots got back after a mission and asked their crewchief to count how many bullets he had left. They had more important work to do.
     
  3. vinnye

    vinnye Member

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    From what I have heard Buzz Beurling would take some beating.
     
  4. Erich

    Erich the old Sage
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    actually if one would read LW after action-kill claims reports you would find once landed both day and night pilots would have the ground crews tally just how many rounds used on a mission and this would be registered with the admin of the JG/NJG unit.
     
  5. drgondog

    drgondog Well-Known Member

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    Ditto 8th AF
     
  6. drgondog

    drgondog Well-Known Member

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    How could anybody actually a.) gather a sample of great pilots with a significant population of victory credits. b.) obtain a reliable and consistent post mission summary, c.) contrast rounds per credit versus aircraft shot down?

    Then compare Egon Mayer with high score against B-17/24 to Sabuo Sakai, Johnny Johnson or Hans Marseille versus single engine a/c versus Gunther Rall and Hartmann with high number of IL-2's..

    The quality of the 'prey' fighter pilot is a determinant also.

    Good luck with this
     
  7. tyrodtom

    tyrodtom Well-Known Member

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    Even if you know the number of rounds left when the aircraft returns, if there were more than one target engaged, you'd still not know how many rounds was shot at each.
    It would just be a SWAG.
     
  8. Bob_Semple_Airplane

    Bob_Semple_Airplane New Member

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    Hans-Joachim Marseilles was very good at this; in one engagement he shot down six P-40s with an average of two 20mm rounds and sixty 7.92mm rounds per plane.
     
  9. drgondog

    drgondog Well-Known Member

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    Bob - the challenge here (and I'm not picking on Marseille) is a.) proving that he actually should individually be credited via unimpeachable reference the 'six' P-40 kills (i.e. six shot down where he said they were shot down, nobody else was involved by testimony), and b.) that the crews accurately accounted for the rounds, and that the published squadron reports accurately reflected what actually happened.

    IIRC a.) condition does not exist, and b.) reports are not in evidence.

    Therefore???
     
  10. buffnut453

    buffnut453 Well-Known Member

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    Totally unprovable on the basis of the question...however, from the Allied side, Pattle has to rate as one of the best marksmen around (IMHO).
     
  11. Njaco

    Njaco The Pop-Tart Whisperer
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    Stats can always be interpreted differently. Compare kills to missions flown and you get a whole different set of aces!
     
  12. CobberKane

    CobberKane Banned

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    This engagement often gets trotted out as a candidate for the pre-eminent feat of air to air combat in the MTO. On the other hand, I've read attempts by historians to reconcile Marseilles' claims with allied losses on the day and it seem he may have beem "optimistic" to the tune of several P-40s, which would somewhat elevate the average munitions expired for each actual kill. That said, there's no doubt Marseilles was an exceptional shot.
     
  13. drgondog

    drgondog Well-Known Member

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    As was Rall and Barkhorn and Hartmann
     
  14. Juha

    Juha Well-Known Member

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    Yes IIRC Rall was famous for his deflection shooting skill as was Marseille.

    Juha
     
  15. Readie

    Readie Well-Known Member

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    Robert Roland Stanford Tuck has my vote.
    Anyone who can split a AA gun barrel with a .303 round takes some beating.
    Cheers
    John
     
  16. Sydhuey

    Sydhuey Member

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    I would agree with Vinnye about Beurling , I have read a couple of reports of him stating in his after action reports how many rounds fired at each aircraft and were they hit, he rarely used his machine guns usualy just cannon and would state things like "4 rounds 20mm left wing root Me109 with such and such markings" , it was scorned by intel offices until several crashed aircraft were located on Malta with exactly the amount of hits and markings as described, this was also confirmed by armourers who questioned how he got kills and returned with so few rounds of ammo used, I am sure there are many outstanding marksman , but Beurling's actions on Malta is the only thing that I have seen that talks about kills on more than one occasion with ridiculously little ammo used.
     
  17. meatloaf109

    meatloaf109 Well-Known Member

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    R.S.T. gets my vote too.
     
  18. Readie

    Readie Well-Known Member

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    Biggin Hill was shrouded with mist and drizzle when Tuck and Canadian Flying Officer Bob Harley took off on a mission on January 28, 1942. After crossing the English Channel at low altitude to avoid radar detection, they reached the French coast near Le Tourquet. They continued 21 miles inland to their target, an alcohol distillery at Hesdin.

    They set the distillery’s four alcohol vats on fire, then followed a road farther inland. The pair strafed a German truck and shot at high-tension electrical wires. Then Tuck saw they had entered a wide valley crammed with railroad tracks; ahead was the town of Boulogne, with its heavy anti-aircraft defenses.

    The British planes turned. Tuck did not want to run a gantlet of heavy flak, and he intended to find his way back to base over a quieter section of the coast. Then he saw a train engine stationary on the tracks. He couldn’t resist the temptation. ‘I thought ‘In for a penny, in for a pound,” Tuck recalled. He and Harley attacked the train engine. ‘We dived on that engine together….I think we both scored hits, and the whole issue disappeared in a tremendous cloud of steam.’

    Tuck lost sight of Harley and banked to avoid a collision. When he came out of the steam cloud he was hit by German 20mm and 37mm flak. ‘I think everything in the Boulogne area opened up on me,’ Tuck said. ‘I was caught in their cross-fire, and at this low altitude with a forty-five degree bank on, they just couldn’t miss.’

    Tuck’s Spitfire was hit in the engine. It belched black smoke, covering his windscreen with oil. Too low to bail out, he shoved his canopy back and began looking for a field in which to crash-land. Peering through the smoke, Tuck sighted an open field, banked his Spitfire around and began gliding in. Suddenly, he saw tracers flash over his head. He saw a truck-mounted, multiple-barreled 20mm flak gun firing at him.

    Angered, Tuck shoved the stick forward and fired a single burst at the 20mm before hitting the field a few yards beyond. At first, he expected to be lynched for shooting up the flak gun. Instead, to his surprise, the Germans complimented Tuck for his marksmanship–one of his 20mm shells had gone up the flak gun’s barrel, splitting it open like a banana.

    download (4).jpg

    Gentleman, crack shot and ace.

    Cheers
    John
     
  19. Njaco

    Njaco The Pop-Tart Whisperer
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    a few pics of Tuck's crashed Spit including one at the wreckage depot (3rd one in from the front).

    .
    Stanford-Tuck-crashed-spitfire.jpg STuck-wreck-opt.jpg rs-tyard.jpg

    .
     
  20. CobberKane

    CobberKane Banned

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    Was Hartmann a great shot? IIRC his preferred method of attack was to swoop in and open fire at ranges where it was almost impossible to miss. Not suggesting that he was trying to compensate for for any deficiencies as a marksman, but he seems to have settled on a method which obviated the need for fancy shooting.
    On the allied side, Dick Bong seems to have been an outstanding deflection shooter. Apparently at least half his kills were 'head on', but I'd guess these were probably not usually perfect 180 degree shots, and calculating shallow deflection on targets closing at eight or nine hundred kilometres per hour must have been pretty tricky.
     
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