Gunther Seeger's Friedrich? - help needed please

Discussion in 'Aircraft Markings and Camouflage' started by Tux, Jan 1, 2016.

  1. Tux

    Tux New Member

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    Hi all,

    I wonder whether anybody can help me to identify the aircraft (probably a Bf 109F-2) being flown by Gunther Seeger in Stab./JG2 during late July 1941, please? If it helps, he may have been flying as 'number two' to Walter Oesau during this period.

    The reason I am looking is that I am trying to find out how to finish a model Bf 109 which I am building to represent (as accurately as possible) the aircraft Seeger was flying on 21st July 1941 when he shot down and killed my great uncle, Pilot Officer Michael Duncan Tucker, near St. Omer.

    Thanks in advance for any help anyone can provide. Any scrap of information would be much appreciated.

    Regards,

    Tux
     
  2. Wayne Little

    Wayne Little Well-Known Member

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    One later marking flown by Seeger (Oct.41)as part of the Stab of JG 2 was Bf 109F-4, W.Nr.7075 -+- two horizontal bars the forward one pointed. Quite possible this marking was also in use during the earlier time period.

    Much like the attached image, possibly had yellow rudder and cowl or lower cowl at the time.

    Will see if I have something more positive...

    Pic Source : ebay
     

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  3. Airframes

    Airframes Benevolens Magister

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    The aircraft flown by the Geschwader Technical Officer, Rudi Pflanz, carried similar markings, but with the addition of a small vertical rectangle above the forward, arrow-shaped bar, denoting his role ( replacing the earlier, large circle after the bar). As with other aircraft of the Geschwader Stab, it also had a yellow rudder, and yellow bottom cowling, with a blue segment to the RLM 70 (possibly black) spinner.
    I have a profile of this aircraft in the Osprey book on JG2, but my new scanner is yet to be properly installed, so I can't post it yet. It's very likely that Seeger's aircraft looked like this (without the small rectangle), as in Wayne's pic, at the time your Great Uncle was shot down. I've had a look through my other JG2 references, but haven't found a photo.
    Hope this helps, and if you'd like to see the profile, even though I can't scan it yet, I could try to photograph it for you.
     
  4. Tux

    Tux New Member

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    Thanks very much to both of you; this is already more than I had hoped I might learn.

    Wayne Little, that photo is very useful, thanks. I am generally quite familiar with Luftwaffe camouflage schemes and markings and it is really useful to hear someone knowledgeable opine that that particular type of staff insignia was likely applied to Seeger's aircraft at the time. Already I can picture a standard western front 74/75/76 scheme with RLM 04 lower cowl and rudder which will be the basis for my project.

    Airframes, thank you, I would be very grateful to see the profile you are talking about, whether you prefer to photograph it or to wait until your scanner is properly installed. Am I correct in thinking the blue (presumably RLM 24) segment to the spinner would be 120 degrees? My instinct would be to colour the rest of the spinner RLM 70 Schwarzgrun but you're right, I will try to find out whether it might have been black instead, first.

    Thanks again for all the help so far, guys. I am eagerly absorbing it all!

    Regards,

    Tux
     
  5. Wayne Little

    Wayne Little Well-Known Member

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    Hey mate your welcome!
     
  6. Airframes

    Airframes Benevolens Magister

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    #6 Airframes, Jan 2, 2016
    Last edited: Jan 2, 2016
    As Wayne stated, you're very welcome.
    Here's the photos of the profile, and a B&W photo from the same book, showing the colour demarcation on the spinner, and apologies for the quality !
    The photo was taken at a 'Press' day, either on, or soon after, 29th July 1941, when Oesau took over command of the Geschwader.
    The markings in the photo Wayne posted would be virtually identical, but omitting the small rectangle above the forward bar.
    My guess is that a 'standard', readily available colour would be used for the blue portion of the spinner, so the RLM 24 blue used for ID letters/numbers would be a very likely choice.
    As for the base colour of the spinner itself, although RLM 70 was still used on the prop blades, various other photos from this period onwards show a slight contrast between the blades and spinner, and my personal feeling is that by the period in question, it would be black.
    Hope these help, and please post pics of your model when it's completed.

    Cheers,

    Terry.

    EDIT:- I forgot to add, the stencil warning instructions for the oil cooler, on the port side of the lower cowling, would be on a masked area of the original RLM 76 underside colour, which is just visible in the B&W photo, but omitted on the profile.
     

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  7. stona

    stona Well-Known Member

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    #7 stona, Jan 2, 2016
    Last edited: Jan 2, 2016
    Wing tips? There is a good picture of two Bf 109 F-2s of 7./JG 2, Wolfgang Flakinger's in the foreground, taken around June 1941 which shows yellow wing tips on both aircraft. I've also seen a photograph of the recently arrived (to 4./JG 2) Josep Wurmheller in front of a Bf 109 F-2, taken in July 1941, which clearly shows a yellow wing tip.

    I'd love to see some evidence for a blue segment on that spinner. Everything I know about Seeger's career suggests that he moved from 3./JG 2 to the Einsatzstaffel of E./JG 2 in March 1941. He then moved to Stab./JG 2 in June. Why blue? It also implies over painting an IFF marking, possible but I'd need convincing.

    Unfortunately I've not been able to find any evidence for Seeger's aircraft at this time. I've still got a few more sources to check :)

    Cheers

    Steve

    Crossed with Airframe. I agree that that spinner segment doesn't look white. Blue was a Geschwader Stab colour wasn't it, but you wouldn't expect to see it on a Gruppe Stab aircraft.
     
  8. stona

    stona Well-Known Member

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    #8 stona, Jan 2, 2016
    Last edited: Jan 2, 2016
    Some piccies:

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    @ Airframes, the photograph and profile above are two different aircraft. The photograph just shows the upper arm of a chevron in front of the Balkenkreuz. The guy pointing looks a lot like Oesau, maybe his aircraft?

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    Cheers

    Steve
     
  9. Airframes

    Airframes Benevolens Magister

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    I forgot about the yellow wing tips, which I noticed in photos in a couple of other books. I believe this was on the underside of the wings only, not on the upper surfaces.
    Yes, the aircraft in the b&W photo is probably one of Oesau's two '109Fs, and I posted it just to show the demarcation of the colours on the spinner.
    That's Oesau, second from right, in the light-coloured jacket, with Pflanz, Leie and Mayer, when they'd been awarded the Knight's Cross. I cropped the photo, missing one of the quartet, in the one I posted, which is one from a series taken at the same time.
    Yes, blue is a Geschwader Stab colour (Gruppe Stab being green), and although it does seem to be a somewhat unusual (spinner) colour for a fighter unit, being more associated with bomber and Bf110 units, it is in line with the Geschwader Stab roles of Oesau, Pflanz, et al.
    In the version of the photo I posted (different to the one posted by Steve) , if that is blue, then it looks rather lighter than one would expect, presumably a result of exposure during reproduction and the (book) printing process.
    However, I have seen this same series of pics in a number of other publications, with at least one from a slightly different angle, where the 'blue' definitely looks darker, appearing as one would expect that shade of blue to appear in a good monochrome photo, just as it does in the first pic, of Wurmheller, posted by Steve.
    I'll see if I can find some more info or pics, as I'm fairly sure I've seen reference to Seeger, possibly with a photo, somewhere.
    Can't promise when I can post anything - if I find anything, but I'll try.
     
  10. Tux

    Tux New Member

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    #10 Tux, Jan 2, 2016
    Last edited: Jan 2, 2016
    Fantastic, thank you! I will certainly post photos. I am planning to build a Spitfire Mk IIa to represent my great uncle's P7890 (hopefully I can find out the 19sqn letter it carried) and pose the two next to each other.

    Yellow wing tips?! I don't think I've ever seen those on western front machines before, except for a couple of BoB-era Emils, iirc. I can't especially see yellow on any of the fantastic photos posted above so are we talking literal wing tips only or did the yellow extend inboard at all?

    Also, in the photo posted by Steve, above, the blue segment of the spinner looks like it's the majority 240 degrees, with only 120 degrees in black. I would normally expect those ratios to be reversed...

    Thanks again for your ongoing efforts, guys.

    Tux
     
  11. Airframes

    Airframes Benevolens Magister

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    Yes, it does seem at least slightly unusual for the blue (if it is blue, and I think it probably is) to be the major part of the spinner.
    The yellow wing tips extended inboard to roughly the joint line. If you look closely at the first pic in post #8, you can just see the difference in tone, especially on the upper sector of the leading edge of the curve of the tip, with the demarcation appearing to be slightly inboard of the pitot tube.
    I'd need to look into this further, but from memory, the yellow wing tips were a 'carry over' from the period of the overall yellow nose, before the change to yellow under cowling only, and were not retained for long, being removed some time in late summer, or possibly later, in 1941.
     
  12. stona

    stona Well-Known Member

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    I think the yellow was top and bottom of the wing tips. It was definitely there in late June, but July? I don't know for sure.

    Cheers

    Steve
     
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