While its true that swept wings dealt with compressibility well, this was not the reason either 262 or 163 had them, it was purely for other aerodynamic reasons, cg on the 262, stability and control on the 163, therefore the Germans were only just coming round to using swept wings for high speed (P.1101, Ta 183 - both unflown in 1945) so its not that strange that the 162 had straight wings. the shorter straight wing is also lighter.
He 162 volksjager
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While its true that swept wings dealt with compressibility well, this was not the reason either 262 or 163 had them, it was purely for other aerodynamic reasons, cg on the 262, stability and control on the 163, therefore the Germans were only just coming round to using swept wings for high speed (P.1101, Ta 183 - both unflown in 1945) so its not that strange that the 162 had straight wings. the shorter straight wing is also lighter.
Njaco
The Pop-Tart Whisperer
The destruction of the Tego glue factory resulted in a few other designs being 'botched' because of the loss of the proper glue. The TA 154 was one of them.
bobbysocks
Chief Master Sergeant
i didnt know whether the LW had experimented enough to have already discovered which wing design was better for compressibility....or whether it was like you said for aerodynamic reasons. thanks
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- #24
mikewint
Captain
erich, i went back and re-read, the actual statement was that ONE nightfighter mosquito squadron, in 600 sorties lost one plane but no documentation. other than that, numerous articles state that the mosquito bombed Berlin itself in 1943 spoiling Goerings day. he then assigned 2 Jagdgeschwaders #25 and #50 to do nothing but defend against the mosquitos. it further states "with little success" but again no exact numbers. mosquitos also destroyed Gestapo HQ, and their records, in several countries another stated that the mosquito had the best kill ratio of any british aircraft, over 4 to 1. i'm sure the luftwaffe shot down mosquitos but not very well or very often.
does anyone have any exact figures?
does anyone have any exact figures?
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bobbysocks
Chief Master Sergeant
wasnt there an old movie about mossies..... the 363rd sq was the name or something like that? circa 1970ish or before...?? i remember seeing it on TV and in color....hmmm so maybe 72ish...cant remember when we got our first color set but it was before i graduated in 74.
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mikewint
Captain
bobbysocks, now that you mention it there was a british movie, David McCallum, i think, about british fighter pilots. one gets killed and the other switches to bombers, the mosquito. lukas mentioned it as his inspiration for the star wars death star bombardment. wonder if it still out on DVD? i think it was just called Mosquito Squadron. never even thought about it until now
further research, pays off. there is a movie, 1964, 633 Squadron, about mosquitos attacking in a narrrow fiord in norway
further research, pays off. there is a movie, 1964, 633 Squadron, about mosquitos attacking in a narrrow fiord in norway
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bobbysocks
Chief Master Sergeant
thats the one!! i was thinking david mccallum was in it but....that was a long time ago. and if i remember they were using skip bombing or i really think some sort of rolling bomb. i am going have to find that...
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- #28
mikewint
Captain
yup, that's the one. the germans had dug in and they had to get the bomb into the tunnel (starwars - death star) i did find 633 Squadron at blockbuster but i'm still looking for Mosquito Squadron
bobbysocks
Chief Master Sergeant
i miss tv like that. i do not wish to glorify war...but there were some great series back then.... and movies.... the battle of britian...dunkirk...a bridge too far ( later on )....but tv had combat, garrison's guerrillas, and the absolute best was 12 o'clock high! LMAO....i got ( and this is not freaking S#!T) a battery operated 50 cal ( on a tripod but who cares) for christmas or birthday.... i would watch 12 oclock high and be a side/turret/tail gunner...when the 109s would zoom i would sitting there on the floor in my pjs, sighting them up and putting the blasting on them them.... that is so funny i forgot completely about that until now. haha...wow..holy crap...too funny of a flash back...but ya know i appreciate that...thanks!
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- #31
mikewint
Captain
Magnu, i have the movie on order from blockbuster if/when i comes i'll offer an opinion. i vaguely remember Mosquito Squadron but i do not recall the 663 movie at all.
Bobbysocks, i recall a series that was on, early '70s i think, you had to buy a special airplane with a pistol grip. the airplane had photo cells tuned to a particular shape of red. as you watched the series there would be dogfights, ground attacks, etc. parts of the enemy aircraft or ground target would flash red. using your airplane you would aim at the red spot and pull the trigger. the plane would make bullet noises and a loud explosion if you were lined up with the flashing red point.
think it was on for two years or so. you could even but VHS tapes of "special missions"
anyone remember that one? it was a kids show but i had to help the boys, you know
Bobbysocks, i recall a series that was on, early '70s i think, you had to buy a special airplane with a pistol grip. the airplane had photo cells tuned to a particular shape of red. as you watched the series there would be dogfights, ground attacks, etc. parts of the enemy aircraft or ground target would flash red. using your airplane you would aim at the red spot and pull the trigger. the plane would make bullet noises and a loud explosion if you were lined up with the flashing red point.
think it was on for two years or so. you could even but VHS tapes of "special missions"
anyone remember that one? it was a kids show but i had to help the boys, you know
bobbysocks
Chief Master Sergeant
wow...i dont remember that one. it sounds like a knock off of one of the first arcade dogfighting games. it used color gun camera footage from the pacific and when you hit the EA the screen would go red and the footage would go to where it went in the drink or burst into flame. was kinda cheesy for even back then but all we had....my, how thing have progressed.
Gixxerman
Senior Airman
Hello, newbie here, usually an interested lurker but thought I might have something worthwhile to chip in here.
Just to add something to the WW2 German stealth debate......
if you check out the U-boat side of things you'll find the Germans were indeed developing radar absobant matting/materials to try and reduce the U-boat radar return.
It's referred to here - h**p://w*w.uboat.net/forums/read.php?20,58738,58742,quote=1
Clearly at least the concept was around and being given attention in Germany.
However this is a world away from a methodically developed, properly tested, well understood, fully supported, and properly deployed military 'system'.
This is something which IMHO applies to so many of those late and advanced German aircraft programs that made it to any kind of operational usage, nevermind the large array of paper planes.
Just to add something to the WW2 German stealth debate......
if you check out the U-boat side of things you'll find the Germans were indeed developing radar absobant matting/materials to try and reduce the U-boat radar return.
It's referred to here - h**p://w*w.uboat.net/forums/read.php?20,58738,58742,quote=1
Clearly at least the concept was around and being given attention in Germany.
However this is a world away from a methodically developed, properly tested, well understood, fully supported, and properly deployed military 'system'.
This is something which IMHO applies to so many of those late and advanced German aircraft programs that made it to any kind of operational usage, nevermind the large array of paper planes.
FLYBOYJ
"THE GREAT GAZOO"
This was later known as "iron ball" paint. I think Lockheed went on to use a similar material on early U-2s.
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- #35
mikewint
Captain
However this is a world away from a methodically developed, properly tested, well understood, fully supported, and properly deployed military 'system'.
Gixxerman. i don't know your history, but from that i'd guess that you've never been in the miltary where that phrase would be an oxymoron
FBJ, do you recall an incident with an f-117 where rain changed the RAM and allowed radar to see, track and shoot down the plane
Gixxerman. i don't know your history, but from that i'd guess that you've never been in the miltary where that phrase would be an oxymoron
FBJ, do you recall an incident with an f-117 where rain changed the RAM and allowed radar to see, track and shoot down the plane
Gixxerman
Senior Airman
I take your point mikewint.
What I'm getting at is the all too often seen blinkered comment that a few prototypes about to enter testing (or initial paper proposals) equates to a serious 'if only....' and 'they were about to....' situation when the item in question has had no time expended on it to develop proper tactics and the host of steps between creating a concept and it's effective operational implementation.
(and even with all of that, as you rightly say, catastropic mistakes still get made)
What I'm getting at is the all too often seen blinkered comment that a few prototypes about to enter testing (or initial paper proposals) equates to a serious 'if only....' and 'they were about to....' situation when the item in question has had no time expended on it to develop proper tactics and the host of steps between creating a concept and it's effective operational implementation.
(and even with all of that, as you rightly say, catastropic mistakes still get made)
FLYBOYJ
"THE GREAT GAZOO"
Total BS.
From what I understand the shoot down of the 117 over Serbia occurred by LF radar being used to track the aircraft. This was almost impossible to do but Serbian spies in Italy were able to determine the take off times of the F-117As and time their flight to their targets. You had some radar operators with LF radar attempting to see anything on their screens about the time the aircraft were expected over target. When the aircraft arrived SAMs were shot off in volley and one got one of the F-117As. This involved a lot of luck but some ingenuity and did show flaws in the F-117As.
Largely agree with FBJ, except as I understood it, rather than spies, it was the almost clockwork timetable the F-117's were adhering to that allowed the shootdown - same place, same time, every day. Seems a silly basic error to make and I recall that ops were mixed up a bit afterwards.
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- #39
mikewint
Captain
I knew about the RAM coatings and that they involved iron which reacted to radar like water to microwaves converting the radar energy to heat leaving little to bounce back. i had never heard it called "iron ball" but that is a very descriptive name.
i'm back to checking old sources but i remember reading something about moisture but as i think about it, it's pretty silly on a supersonic plane.
the germans were slow to recog radar and its effectiveness. if they would have concentrated on the british coastal radars and kept hitting the RAF bases the battle of britain would have come out differently.
Gixxerman, i pretty well knew what you meant, nothing in combat ever works the way you want it to, the dog-gone enemy refuses to play by the rules. but that "what if" stuff is so facinating
i'm back to checking old sources but i remember reading something about moisture but as i think about it, it's pretty silly on a supersonic plane.
the germans were slow to recog radar and its effectiveness. if they would have concentrated on the british coastal radars and kept hitting the RAF bases the battle of britain would have come out differently.
Gixxerman, i pretty well knew what you meant, nothing in combat ever works the way you want it to, the dog-gone enemy refuses to play by the rules. but that "what if" stuff is so facinating
FLYBOYJ
"THE GREAT GAZOO"
One F-117 has been lost in combat, to Serbian/Yugoslav forces. On March 27, 1999, during the Kosovo War, the 3rd Battalion of the 250th Missile Brigade under the command of Colonel Zoltán Dani, equipped with the Isayev S-125 'Neva-M' (NATO designation SA-3 'Goa'), downed F-117A serial number 82-806 with a Neva-M missile. According to NATO Commander Wesley Clark and other NATO generals, Yugoslav air defenses found that they could detect F-117s with their "obsolete" Soviet radars operating on long wavelengths. This, combined with the loss of stealth when the jets got wet or opened their bomb bays, made them visible on radar screens. The pilot, Captain Ken "Wiz" Dwelle, survived and was later rescued by NATO forces. However, the wreckage of the F-117 was not promptly bombed, and the Serbs are believed to have invited Russian personnel to inspect the remains, inevitably compromising the US stealth technology. The SAMs were most likely guided manually with the help of thermal imagers and laser rangefinders included in the Pechora-M variant of the SA-3s believed to have been used. Reportedly several SA-3s were launched, one of which detonated in close promixity to the F-117A, forcing the pilot to eject. According to an interview, Zoltán Dani was able to keep most of his missile sites intact and had a number of spotters spread out looking for F-117s and other aircraft. Zoltán and his missile crews guessed the flight paths of earlier F-117As from occasional visual and radar spottings and judging from this information and what target had just been bombed, Zoltán and his missile battery determined the probable flight path of F-117A. His missile crews and spotters were then able to locate it and fire their missiles. Zoltán also claims to have modified his radars to better detect the F-117A, but he has not disclosed what was changed. Parts of the shot-down aircraft are now presented to the public in the Museum of Yugoslav Aviation in Belgrade.
