Heinkel He111 for Terry

[Micdrow]

Terry,

I assume most of this you know but will add what I can as I find it here.

Heinkel He111H-3 (werk 3340)

III/KG 53 or 9/KG 53

Force landed at Armentieres after damage from fighter attack. Two NCO's wounded.

Aircraft A1+BT 40% damaged.

I am assuming that this is the aircraft you are talking about, the KG 53 book according to amazon just shipped today so hopfully in a week or two I will have more from there and will continue to add more to this thread as I find more

 

[Micdrow]

From the book Bomber Units of the Luftwaffe 1933-1945 Reference Source Volume 1 by Henry L de Zeng IV and Douglas G Stankey with Eddie J Creek.

From the books I read the aircraft you are talking about was shot down on 15 September 1940

 

[Micdrow]

The info above was just for the III/KG 53 for the Battle of Britain. The B on the code is suppose to be gelbe B.

 

[Airframes]

Great stuff Paul !
I have the 'Bomber Units' vol 1 book, which is good for general background, and yes, that's the very aircraft I mentioned.
It is indeed 'Yellow B', and that photo has lead to some variations in colour profiles and decal sheet instructions, as well as the painting of many models.
It's been variously described as a H-2 and H-3, and portrayed with 'waist' guns, and with a 'dip' in the upper camouflage colours around the yellow 'B' of the codes, protruding into the underside RLM 65 colour. The quality of reproduction of the photo, in varied sizes in a number of books, has no doubt contributed to what I firmly believe are errors in this area.
Close examination of one (good) version of the photo I have, strongly suggests that the 'dip' in the 'green' colours is, in fact, marks on the original print or negative, which can also be seen on other areas of the fuselage and wings, and particularly around the waist windows, and in some versions of the photo, these marks are quite dark, giving the appearance of paint (hence the 'assumed' dip in the camouflage colours), and also giving the impression of the framing around the rear waist window where the MG15 mount would be, as well as the impression of the MG15 gun barrel.
Also, what appears to be paint chipping following a line of rivets or fastners along the port engine cowling, is also very definitely damage to the original print.
Close inspection very strongly suggests that there is no gun mount frame, or gun (which would be right for an un-modified/up-dated H-2), and that the 'dip' actually shows the underside RLM 65 paint marred by the imperfection in the print.
The pink bars on the starboard wing (and also on the starboard fin) would have been applied for the large- formation raids on London on, or more likely after, September 7th.
This aircraft will be the subject of one of my models for the period of the 'Hardest Days' - August 13th to September 6th - and will not have the bars.
The Werke nummer would normally be painted, in white, at the top of the fin on the port side, as seen on other aircraft of the unit, although, depending on production source, this has also been seen to be in black, on the rudder base, on either, or both sides, and also on the base of the fin on the port side.
The Wk.Nr is not visible in any of the versions of the photo I have seen to date and, even if it was black, I think that it would show, if only as a 'blur', in the best copies of the pic seen to date, which leads me to think, is it on the starboard side?
It's this I want to clarify and, if possible, crew names for missions in the period of interest - possibly the same crew who force-landed, with wounded, in mid -September ?

 

[Micdrow]

Your welcome Terry and still looking for more info though you may find this interesting. Link is to the German archive for the picture. Some of it in English and some in german but it dates the picture and I think if you create a long it you will get the best rendering of the picture. Hope it helps!!!

Bundesarchiv - Picture database: Picture archive

 

[Airframes]

Thanks Paul, and there's no rush. It would be nice to find more info on the actual aircraft, and crew(s), if possible, but not essential.
Not sure I fully understand the Bundesarchiv page - got blank boxes awaiting info, but got nowhere with a search for 'KG53, 1940'.
However, I'm sure i have the photo reference number in at least one of my books, so I'll give that a try.

 

[Micdrow]

No problem Terry, I stumbled onto that web site yesterday looking for something. I typed in Henkel He-111 in the search box and came up with three pages. On the second page was the same picture I posted above with a little info in English on the photo. I was going to look closer at the web page and maybe create a login if its free and see if I can download an original copy of the picture where reprinting on different paper can cause problems with pictures as you well know

I also thought I read some were this is a picture of the plane crashed in France on September 15 mission in this book but I do now own it.

Amazon product ASIN 0901928003View: http://www.amazon.com/dp/0901928003/ref=wl_it_dp_o_pC_nS_ttl?_encoding=UTF8&colid=O0RGQX46PTLI&coliid=I301G3CNCNKVKI

 

[Airframes]

Good stuff Paul. I thought I'd found a pic of it after the crash-landing, but it was another bird from the unit, with one gear leg collapsed, at Villacoublay.

 

[Micdrow]

Terry I read on a message modeling board that they thought the British 66th fighter squadron damaged this aircraft on the 15th. I don't have very much on British squadrons but it may be a lead for you.

 

[Airframes]

Yes, got that info Paul. Can't find crew details though, and it's possible it was same crew in the late August battles.

 

[Micdrow]

Yes, got that info Paul. Can't find crew details though, and it's possible it was same crew in the late August battles.

Very possible Terry, I looked up the tracking history for my order on the KG53 book. Looks to be delivered at the latest next week Thursday. Looks like all the Blitz books have shipped as well so if really lucky they all will be here by Friday next week with hopefully more info

I am trying to find the data I have on Luftwaffe aircraft damage, Say 10 percent minor damage 40 percent significant damage but repairable and say 80 or above scape but cant find my notes on the subject at the moment. 40 percent seems repairable if I remember right so wondering what happened to the aircraft after it was damaged.

 

[Airframes]

I think 40% would mean return to a main repair unit or factory, but possibly repairable. Probably depend on what/where damage was - could be beyond economical repair in extreme cases.

 

[Micdrow]

I think 40% would mean return to a main repair unit or factory, but possibly repairable. Probably depend on what/where damage was - could be beyond economical repair in extreme cases.

You could be right, I just wish I could find my notes on this to confirm. Reason is I am wondering if we could find pictures of the aircraft after repaired for more details on the plane itself.

 

[Micdrow]

Terry, so the books came and kind of disappointed. The KG 53 book does not have one werk number in the whole book. Its mainly diary quotes and such which is great but they only say aircraft identification codes such as A1 + LS and such. There is a whole list of aircraft crews and such as wounded, killed in action and MIA but no aircraft werk numbers to with them. The Blitz then and now book shows the confirmed aircraft shot down but no damaged aircraft for that date like the Battle of Britain then and now book. Running out of idea's unless you have come up with more info.

 

[Airframes]

No problem Paul, and thanks very much for trying.
At least I have the Werke nummer, and know that the aircraft was damaged, with wounded crew in September, after the period I'm concentrating on.
I can only guess that perhaps few, if any records, of Werke nummer and production blocks etc exist, as I haven't seen any reference to any of these in any of the He-111 material that I have.

When you get to the Fennec book, I'd be interested in any pics and / or profiles showing the aircraft in the bare metal finish.
The pic and profile below are what I'm using as a basis the colour scheme for my model, along with a number of other B&W photos.

 

[Micdrow]

The books are here Terry, are talking something like this

 

[Micdrow]

Another one

 

[Airframes]

Yep, that sort of thing Paul, but for the Fennec (French T-28 Trojan) rather than the T-6.

EDIT:- Crossing posts. Forgo to ask also, if there's any colour pics of aircrew, wearing flight suit, parachute and helmet - it's the suit colour and helmet and parachute harness details I'm looking for.
Thanks in advance Paul !

 

[Micdrow]

Ahh more like this then

 

[Airframes]

Yep - great stuff Paul !
Anything to give an overall 'feel' for the bare metal appearance, and details such as the black-painted panel for the exhaust staining. If you have anything showing the fuselage badge as seen in the profile, that would be great too.
Thanks again.