Heinkel 'roadmap' after the He 111 and 112?

[tomo pauk]

After the important and very useful He 111 and decent, if uninspired He 112, Heinkel IMO had a lot of problems to come out with a remarkable design worthy to mass produce. Some promise was held with He 100, 280, 219 and He 162, but neither took the RLM by storm, so to speak, bar the 162 that was too late, and with some of it's own problems. Th He 177 was a waste of limited German funds and time.
So lets have Heinkel design something that LW might've put into a good use, and also have RLM grow a brain cell or two to accept promising designs in a timely manner. The dive-bombing requirement is put aside for the moment if that helps.

 

[Shortround6]

Develop the He 111.

Or replace with a step forward and not try for the triple axial somersault back flip long jump that was the He 177

The B-17E sure didn't look like a B-17D and the B-23 didn't look like the B-18 so there was some wiggle room

They do need a powerplant though.

 

[tomo pauk]

Develop the He 111.

Or replace with a step forward and not try for the triple axial somersault back flip long jump that was the He 177

The B-17E sure didn't look like a B-17D and the B-23 didn't look like the B-18 so there was some wiggle room

A 'simple' 4-engined bomber, obviously with separate engines, would've certainly been much less of a headache than the He 177 was.

They do need a powerplant though.

Going with 4 plain vanilla engines is far less riskier path than aiming for the moon with 2 super-duper-wonderful engines that were pain to materialize.

From what I can gather, Heinkel was trying to make it's mark in 3 categories of military aircraft past 1939:
- heavy bomber to replace He 111 - they failed with Me 177; go simple here instead
- 2-engined heavy fighter/night fighter, materialized as He 219; I'd go with a fast bomber instead, with BMW 801 engines for starters; keep the small wing of the He 219 and the general layout, but obviously it will have a bomb bay in the fuselage; separate version for night fighting
- fighter; He 100 went nowhere due to it's high specialization and type of cooling system; He 280 might've worked (some half-decent engines and two MK 103s and that's it); He 162 was too late and with some bugs - no wonder there

One wonders whether a fighter that has layout of the Vampire/Sea Vixen/Saab 21R/Flitzer might've worked - start with two smaller jet engines in the back, redesign for one big engine once it is available?

 

[Shortround6]

A 'simple' 4-engined bomber, obviously with separate engines, would've certainly been much less of a headache than the He 177 was.

The Germans didn't even much in the way of Wellington.
The Do 217 may have come close but a little more emphasis on the "bomb truck" aspect might have helped.

They were never going to reach Urals unless in Herman's drug induced dreams.

 

[tomo pauk]

The Germans didn't even much in the way of Wellington.
The Do 217 may have come close but a little more emphasis on the "bomb truck" aspect might have helped.

Do 217 was a much better bomb truck than the Wellington. Talk 3-4 tons of bombs vs. 2 tons for the Welligton X; both for overload conditions. Granted, there is only so much of a leeway with 2-engined bombers - it was either speed or payload, but not both.
He 111 was as good bomb truck as Wellington, bar the defensive firepower. It carried the 2-ton 'German cookie' years before Wimpy carried RAF's 4000 lber.

 

[Shortround6]

How far could the 217 carry it's load?

How about a 111 that can carry a pair of 1000kg bombs inside instead of flapping around in the breeze?

You need a bomber that can carry 4000-4400lbs inside and carry more than 650imp gallons of fuel at the same time.
Heck, you could put over 600imp gallons in an A-20, it just didn't carry much in the way of bombs

You can put 750imp gallons in a Wellington?
You can put just over 800imp gallons in a B-26 or a B-25 just in the wing tanks.

Of course the Germans have no way to escort any long range day time strikes so maybe it doesn't matter so much.

 

[tomo pauk]

How about a 111 that can carry a pair of 1000kg bombs inside instead of flapping around in the breeze?

You need a bomber that can carry 4000-4400lbs inside and carry more than 650imp gallons of fuel at the same time.
Heck, you could put over 600imp gallons in an A-20, it just didn't carry much in the way of bombs

You can put 750imp gallons in a Wellington?

750 imp gals on the latest Wellington + 4500 lb of bombs. Engines: Hercules VI or XVI, 1615 HP for take off. Range 1325 miles on most economical power setting, cruise at 180 mph. Data from November 1945. Range of 1440 miles is given for the Wellington III on 750 gals, per data card from 1944.
With aux tanks, Wimpy carried 1030 imp gals, reducing the bomb load to 1500 lbs
He 111H-4, Jumo 211D power with 1200 HP for take off, carried 4285 L of fuel (1132 imp gals) when two 1000 kg bombs were under the fuselage; extra fuel tanks were in place of internal bomb cells. Range 2700-2800 km (~1700 miles) at most economical power setting, depending on altitude; cruise at 170+- mph with bombs, 200 mph without. Data from February 1940.


Despite of all of this, Luftwaffe will still need much more than a warmed-up He 111 from 1940 on IMO.

(dinner time now )

 

[Shortround6]

Well, starting from the tail we could copy the B-23 a bit?

instead of

Use a real top turret instead of that ersatz thing they got in 1942.

Even the Blenheim had power elevation and traverse in 1938.

Find some 1600-1750hp engines???
The B-23s were being delivered between Feb and Sept of 1940

Maybe you don't keep any of the He 111 but something about that size with a pair of 1600-1750hp engines , 4400lbs inside, 800 or more Imp gallons in the wings
A tail gun of some sort a few other guns (it doesn't have to be a B-17 but the Germans had crap for defensive guns for far too long)

forget the last 20mph of top speed, you weren't going to outrun the fighters anyway.
Bigger wing might make it easier to take-off and land.

 

[GrauGeist]

The He100 was a novel idea, but I think Heinkel put too much effort into it, when the earlier He112 was a better, all around fighter, to be honest.

You know how I feel about the He280 and a missed opportunity for the Luftwaffe, so we'll just leave that alone for now.

As far as a fast, light bomber, what are your thoughts about the He119?
Personally, I'm not a fan of "coupled" engines. But what if Heinkel placed the engines on the wings, similar to the He219 layout?

 

[tomo pauk]

Well, starting from the tail we could copy the B-23 a bit?
instead of
Use a real top turret instead of that ersatz thing they got in 1942.

Even the Blenheim had power elevation and traverse in 1938.

A 'quadruple' turret, as the one from the BP Defiant, at the dorsal place? Retrofitting the tail gun post will involve a bit of redesigning.
Couple the quad turret on top with the twin MG position (a-la what Hampden had) in the 'dustbin' and defensive firepower goes up quite a bit.

Find some 1600-1750hp engines???
The B-23s were being delivered between Feb and Sept of 1940

Maybe you don't keep any of the He 111 but something about that size with a pair of 1600-1750hp engines , 4400lbs inside, 800 or more Imp gallons in the wings
A tail gun of some sort a few other guns (it doesn't have to be a B-17 but the Germans had crap for defensive guns for far too long)

forget the last 20mph of top speed, you weren't going to outrun the fighters anyway.
Bigger wing might make it easier to take-off and land.

If 4400 lbs of bombs (internal) and 800+ imp gals is sufficient, the He 111s from 1939 were already doing it with 1100 HP engines. Wing was more than big enough.
Do 217 was lugging around twice that bomb load in the internal bomb bay, need-be.

Two 1600-1750 HP engines flying with required bomb load of 4400 and 800 imp gals allow for a small and fast bomber. I'd again suggest the He219-lookalike for this job: two BMW 801s, bomb bay in fuselage, token defensive firepower, and here we go.

 

[Just Schmidt]

I am aware that the He 219 may be somewhat hyped as one of those if-only-the-Luftwaffe-had-got-its-act-together aircraft. However, of the projects Heinkel had going, the basic airframe probably had the most promise and the least problems/not quite working yet innovations.

It might have made sense to shelve most or all of the other stuff (well, update the He-111 somewhat), and then develop the 219 for heavy fighter, fast bomber, ground attack and perhaps recon? Diversion of especially the resources spent on development and production of the He-177 should result in useful aircraft in somewhat decent numbers early enough to matter. Not win the war, but still.

I'm not sure the He-280 could have appeared in numbers much earlier than the Me 262, the critical component being the engines. The He 162 might or might not have proved a disaster operationally, but even if they begin a few months earlier to make a somewhat less rushed job with fewer issues, it takes a long time before it begins to rob anything else of resources.

 

[tomo pauk]

The He100 was a novel idea, but I think Heinkel put too much effort into it, when the earlier He112 was a better, all around fighter, to be honest.

You know how I feel about the He280 and a missed opportunity for the Luftwaffe, so we'll just leave that alone for now.

He 100 will need a full redesign of it's both cooling systems (coolant and oil) if it is to became a really viable combat aircraft. Yes, it will cost the speed (can be countered by installing new engine versions), but it also frees a lot of internal volume for guns/ammo/fuel.
He 280 - I'd arm it with two MK 103s and that's about it. The jet engine type it used would've been probably easier to mass-produce than the Jumo 004 or BMW 003, due to the type of compressor used; it will still require the air-cooled blades.

As far as a fast, light bomber, what are your thoughts about the He119?
Personally, I'm not a fan of "coupled" engines. But what if Heinkel placed the engines on the wings, similar to the He219 layout?

Go with something similar to the He 219 as a fast bomber?
However, seems like the DB 606 worked well in the He 119...

 

[Shortround6]

However, seems like the DB 606 worked well in the He 119...

What do you do with it????
Pilot and co-pilot/navigator? sit with the drive shaft between them.

Radio man sat just behind/at the wing trailing edge. They claimed this man could use a single MG 15 in a dorsal "position" (window?)

How much would you have to change to get something useful out of it?



Go with something similar to the He 219 as a fast bomber?

And again, what is left after you get done modifying it?
The entire fuselage from the rear of the cockpit to behind the wing trailing edge, about where the Schrage Musik was, is fuel tanks.
The wing roots from fuselage to engine nacelles is where the cannon ammo goes. So you could pull the guns out out the tray in the bottom. make or two of the fuselage tanks smaller, stick fuel tanks where the cannon ammo was. for what kind of range/bomb load?

Plane.............................Wing area.................wing span....................power...........................speed..........................bombs
A-20G...............................464sq ft.....................61ft 3 in....................2 X 1600.........................325?..........................2000lb
A-26B................................540sq ft.....................70ft............................2 X 2000..........................360mph.................4000lb
Mosquito.........................454sqft......................54ft............................2 X 1430?.......................380mph..................3000lbs
He 219.............................479 sq ft.....................64ft 8in....................2 X 1750?.........................400-430??..............2200lb?

The He 219 had about 580 imp gallons of fuel in the fuselage. How much left after you cram in the Bomb bay?
Yes you can make the fuselage fatter and/or taller. But then the speed goes down. Hanging bombs underneath also slows down the bomber (and then the A-20 can carry 4000lbs and the A-26 can carry 6000lbs)
The He 219 has about the worst range, you could hang drop tanks underneath?

And what are you going to bomb?
From 1943 the German front lines were getting further and further away from Russian industry, forget the the Urals.

Germany needed a better bomber in 1941-42 and if things had gone better for them 1943. Better bombers in 1944 are too late.

 

[Admiral Beez]

Post BoB Germany needs to laser focus on what's needed to win in Barbarossa. For the Luftwaffe this means tactical strike, air superiority and transport aircraft, like the He 116. For the army they need engineering, mechanized infantry transport, all terrain trucks and a solid long distance logistical and fuel chain, in addition to mechanized artillery and tanks. For the navy, skip Bismarck and Tirpitz…. that steel, copper and alloys can build thousands of AFVs.

So, that's what Heinkel needs to focus on.

 

[GrauGeist]

My thoughts on the He119, were to move the engines out to the wings, similar to the He219 had.

In regards to the He219, dump all tje fantastic variants and get back to the original concept: interceptor/night fighter.
The Luftwaffe had a wealth of twin engined bombers, the He219 didn't need to be another.

The He280 performed at and above expectation when powered by the HeS8 - work out the overheating issues and get it into production asap with those engines instead of waiting around for the HeS30. The three MG151/20 in the nose were quite capable armament, no real need to change them.

As far as heavy bombers go, either drop the He177 and stay focused on current models being manufactured or produce the He177 as originally designed.

 

[Admiral Beez]

As far as heavy bombers go, either drop the He177 and stay focused on current models being manufactured or produce the He177 as originally designed.

Skip the heavy bombers. You'll never make enough to matter and if the war's still on by the time Heinkel has three dozen in service, you've already lost. Focus on winning Barbarossa before autumn 1942.

 

[tomo pauk]

What do you do with it????
Pilot and co-pilot/navigator? sit with the drive shaft between them.
Radio man sat just behind/at the wing trailing edge. They claimed this man could use a single MG 15 in a dorsal "position" (window?)
How much would you have to change to get something useful out of it?

I'd start with attaching a bomb rack aft the cooling system.

Go with something similar to the He 219 as a fast bomber?

And again, what is left after you get done modifying it?
The entire fuselage from the rear of the cockpit to behind the wing trailing edge, about where the Schrage Musik was, is fuel tanks.
The wing roots from fuselage to engine nacelles is where the cannon ammo goes. So you could pull the guns out out the tray in the bottom. make or two of the fuselage tanks smaller, stick fuel tanks where the cannon ammo was. for what kind of range/bomb load?

...The He 219 had about 580 imp gallons of fuel in the fuselage. How much left after you cram in the Bomb bay?

The "alternative He 219" should be designed as a bomber 1st (rather than just adopting the historical He 219 into a bomber) - meaning, among other things, that fuel tanks are in the wings and wing/fuselage joint, and the bomb bay is in fuselage.

 

[Shortround6]

I'd start with attaching a bomb rack aft the cooling system.

I would start by attaching a new cooling system.
The radiator in the photos is like some of the photos of radiators on the He 100.
A supplement to the surface cooling used when climbing.
And once you go to external bomb racks you might kiss 20-30mph of the impressive top speed goodbye.
You might also kiss the airplane goodbye as the exhausts for the middle 12 cylinders exited the aircraft out the belly of the aircraft right behind the radiator.
There was an internal bay for camera/s and a small bomb load behind the main spar.

Now, are you truly fast enough to dodge the enemy interceptors or do you need more help than that gun firing out the flush window in the top of the fuselage, think radio operators gun in the B-17 as your only defense

The "alternative He 219" should be designed as a bomber 1st (rather than just adopting the historical He 219 into a bomber) - meaning, among other things, that fuel tanks are in the wings and wing/fuselage joint, and the bomb bay is in fuselage.

Problem is you need a bigger, fatter fuselage.
It can be done, but it throws the Performance estimates way off.
If it it is going to be a proper bomber and not a nuisance raider you need a bombsight and room for the bomb aimer to operate.

 

[tomo pauk]

I would start by attaching a new cooling system.
The radiator in the photos is like some of the photos of radiators on the He 100.
A supplement to the surface cooling used when climbing.
And once you go to external bomb racks you might kiss 20-30mph of the impressive top speed goodbye.
You might also kiss the airplane goodbye as the exhausts for the middle 12 cylinders exited the aircraft out the belly of the aircraft right behind the radiator.
There was an internal bay for camera/s and a small bomb load behind the main spar.

Now, are you truly fast enough to dodge the enemy interceptors or do you need more help than that gun firing out the flush window in the top of the fuselage, think radio operators gun in the B-17 as your only defense

Good call on cooling system. Rack and bomb (1000-1400-1800 kg) behind the radiator might not be that draggy?

A bomb rack continuing behind the, now, bigger radiator can offer a reduction of drag. Sorta what the 1-engined A/C with bomb-bay had (Suisei, Helldiver, Avenger). Granted, we'd want the bomb bay to carry at lest a 1400 kg bomb with bomb bay door closed, and 1800 kg with doors removed?
Yes, all of these additions will require the re-routing of exhaust manifolds that exit from the bottom, so a start with rack-and-bomb is more prudent.

Some means of defensive fire is nice to have, unless the preferred metod of attack is night bombing. If the enemy can't scrape a half-decent force of fighters going 20-30 mph faster, it will be viable as a day bomber. Escorting it during the day raids is the best option, but long-range escort was not what LW was known for.

Problem is you need a bigger, fatter fuselage.
It can be done, but it throws the Performance estimates way off.
If it it is going to be a proper bomber and not a nuisance raider you need a bombsight and room for the bomb aimer to operate.

I'm okay with fatter fuselage required so big bombs ca be carried. A tad under 1m wide, as it was the case with Ju 288.

 

[Shortround6]

Germans need general purpose bombers.

Not one trick wonders.

Once you have bombers that can carry eight 250kg bombs or four 500 kg bombs inside then worry about planes that can carry 1400-1600kg AP bombs.