Hellcat vs Spitfire - which would you take?

nuuumannn · Apr 25, 2013

I HAVE numbers.

And I have proven to you that your figures are meaningless. Just because you refuse to see any one else's reasoning other than your own doesn't justify it any further.

If you can, do it with the numbers or be shown to be an apologist.

Gee, and I thought we were having a discussion about aircraft. Sorry Greg, what's the point in continuing? You are being unreasonable.

fastmongrel · Apr 25, 2013

Oh great another playground scuffle about fighter claims. We havent had one of these since about Oh let me see yesterday was it.

I have the numbers that show that the RAF shot down every plane the LW had in the BOB. I have the numbers that show that the LW shot down the Soviet airforce twice in 1941.

nuuumannn · Apr 25, 2013

C'mon then Mongrel, let's see 'em, THEY ARE ALL THAT MATTER!

wuzak · Apr 25, 2013

Correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't Japanese air power on the wane before the Hellcat arrived in numbers in the PTO?

wuzak · Apr 25, 2013

nuuumannn said:
Yes, so what's wrong with comparing the Seafire with the Hellcat?

There is nothing wrong with comparing them.

I was just trying to point out that Seafire development lagged that of the Spitfire, and that the Seafire could have been better earlier.

nuuumannn said:
So, which was better? Seafire XV or Hellcat?

Apart from range I would have to pick the Seafire XV. The only problem is that it turned up late.

wuzak · Apr 25, 2013

A side question: Seafire or Firefly?

Apparently the Royal Navy requested a navalised version of the Spitfire in 1938. The proposal was for Fairey to build them. Instead the RN ended up buying the Firefly. Two different sorts of fighter, but which would have been better for the FAA in WW2?

And if the Seafire is chosen over the Firefly does that affect Griffon development at all?

redcoat · Apr 25, 2013

stone said:
Some aircraft did operate in both. How do the P-38s figures in the ETO compare with its figures in the PTO? Anybody know?Cheers

Steve

In the Pacific the P-38 was the highest scoring USAAF fighter aircraft, in Europe the P-38 had the worst kill/loss ratio of any of the fighters used by USAAF being credited with destroying 1,771 enemy aircraft for the loss of 1,758 P-38s,

Jabberwocky · Apr 25, 2013

GregP said:
Rubbish Nuuumannn. They did what they did and one has to come out on top. There are NO equal war thearters. There are NO equal pilots. We only have the RESULTS and they are what they are.

You are apologist for your favorite type, whatever that is and I have my suspicion.

No numbers, no result.

I HAVE numbers. See Post #25. Post yours. Notice no numbers since post 25?

Is there a reason? I think so. Figure it out. Either the Hellcat is the best or you can't prove it otherise with believable numbers from a believable source.

If you can, do it with the numbers or be shown to be an apologist.

By this logic, the fm2 was far superior to the F4U 4

stona · Apr 25, 2013

redcoat said:
In the Pacific the P-38 was the highest scoring USAAF fighter aircraft, in Europe the P-38 had the worst kill/loss ratio of any of the fighters used by USAAF being credited with destroying 1,771 enemy aircraft for the loss of 1,758 P-38s,

Thank you redcoat.

That illustrates my point perfectly. An aircraft successful in one theatre had an almost 1:1 kill ratio in another.

How do we know that it would have been any different for other aircraft from the PTO operating in the ETO? We don't and never will, which is also my point.

Two very different environments. At least apples and oranges are both fruits.

Cheers

Steve

nuuumannn · Apr 25, 2013

Based on past posts, I don't think Greg agrees with you, Steve!

does that affect Griffon development at all

I don't really think so, Wuzak, since its development went back further than the Firefly, so if it was not proceded with, the engine would have been earmarked for the fighter prototypes and production aircraft it was fitted to at any rate.

Aozora · Apr 25, 2013

All I can see is that this thread is starting to replicate the earlier one on the Hellcat and Corsair in Europe. Bottom line is that both were fine fighters and did exactly what was advertised on the box - the F6F was designed to beat the Japanese and that's exactly what it did; it was capable of beating or equaling the best carrier and land based fighters the Japanese could design, plus it could give the likes of the Fw 190 and mid-late Bf 109s a run for their money, which is no mean feat for a carrier based fighter loaded down with all the extra equipment, ruggedness and weight that the role entailed.

The Spitfire was developed into one of the best short-medium range fighters available, and was adapted to becoming a fine long-range reconnaissance aircraft, plus it performed reasonably well as a fighter bomber when called on to do so.

As far as I'm concerned there was no real direct comparison between the Hellcat or Spitfire because their designs were so far apart in time, philosophy and purpose. The Allies should be grateful that both were available at the right times.

VBF-13 · Apr 25, 2013

nuuumannn said:
The Hellcat, although it had an illustrious career was not around for nearly as long, did not serve with nearly as many armed forces and was not built in anywhere near the same number of variants and sub-marks - not to forget that it was purely designed for carrier operations with naval forces.

That's because they got it right the first time.

stona said:
Unless two aircraft are flying at the same time, in the same theatre, against identical opposition and carrying out similar missions, kill ratios are utterly irrelevant as a means of comparing different aircraft.

Don't forget the same pilot at the stick in each of these aircraft.

wuzak said:
Correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't Japanese air power on the wane before the Hellcat arrived in numbers in the PTO?

What's this, propaganda?
-Mae West, My Little Chickadee (1940)

redcoat said:
In the Pacific the P-38 was the highest scoring USAAF fighter aircraft, in Europe the P-38 had the worst kill/loss ratio of any of the fighters used by USAAF being credited with destroying 1,771 enemy aircraft for the loss of 1,758 P-38s,

Redcoat, he asked how the figures compared. What are the figures on the P38s in the PTO?

Glider · Apr 25, 2013

If your in the RN then you take the Hellcat. If your in the RAF you take the Spit.

stona · Apr 25, 2013

VBF-13 said:
Redcoat, he asked how the figures compared. What are the figures on the P38s in the PTO?

The P-38s kill ratio in the Pacific was 11:1

It was more than ten times more successful there than in the ETO, but I suspect Greg already knew that.

If you were choosing an aircraft simply on something as simplistic as kill ratios then you would probably fly an FM-2 with a tremendous ratio of 33:1.

Cheers

Steve

VBF-13 · Apr 25, 2013

stona said:
The P-38s kill ratio in the Pacific was 11:1

Thanks. Just to satisfy my own morbid curiosity do you have a raw data citation for those claims?

nuuumannn · Apr 25, 2013

That's because they got it right the first time.

You are kidding, right? D'you expect us to take that seriously?

wuzak · Apr 25, 2013

If they had got it right first time, wouldn't all Hellcats have subsequently been powered by R-2600s instead of R-2800s?

Shortround6 · Apr 25, 2013

They got it right the the first time because they were practically handed the R-2800 with two stage supercharger on a plate.

Actually Grumman did an exceptional job, but then they had already done several design studies of planes powered by R-2600s. They had the R-2800 with two stage supercharger for the F4U already well along in development.

They were NOT trying to adapt a 1000hp plane to a 1500-2000hp engine. They were NOT saddled with engine that had a long and tortured development.

ANY successful airplane needs a good designer or team, a good engine, timing and a fair amount of luck.

Luck in being designed at the right time, luck in freedom from crashes in early development ( or purchasers that will over look that), luck in availability of parts and accessories and luck in a whole lot of areas.
Sometimes luck in the form of other companies being able to take-over production/responsibilities to allow concentration on a new design.

beitou · Apr 25, 2013

What is a 2 stage supercharger or a 2 speed 2 stage engine?

Milosh · Apr 25, 2013

wuzak said:
If they had got it right first time, wouldn't all Hellcats have subsequently been powered by R-2600s instead of R-2800s?

The F6F looks like a F4F on steroids.

Hellcat vs Spitfire - which would you take?

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