Greetings, members! I am new to the forum. I live in Upottery, Devonshire, UK from where the Band of Brothers flew out to the Normandy beaches for us - God Bless their cotton socks! We have just outside the village itself a modest but active WWII (and associated) museum in a restored Nissen hut. They are : USA WW2 Heritage Centre, Upottery, Cherry Hayes Farm, Smeatharpe, UPOTTERY, EX14 9RD. They open: Thurs, Fri & Sat 11am-4pm) until late October. Admission is free but, of course, a modest donation is always welcome. Just recently a local farmer brought in part of an aircraft which had been used (probably since soon after 1945) to block a gap in a hedgerow to keep sheep from wandering! It is known that a Heinkel (sorry, no further details) crashed in the area in the latter part of the war. The museum would be very interested to know if this part belonged to the Heinkel or is it coincidental? Best guess currently is that it is part of a wing. Any further particulars would be most welcome if anyone has any ideas. Pictures are the best managed on a quick impromptu visit with Texan guests. I could do more if specific requests are made for different angles, close-ups and so on. Thanks in anticipation. Fontes
HELP FOR IDENTIFYING WWII AIRCRAFT PART
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Airframes
Benevolens Magister
As you've guessed, it's a bit difficult to identify positively. However, it looks like it may be a flap and, just going off the shape of the hinges and the 'rounded' edge profile, it could well be from a Heinkel He-111.
Are you able to state what you think the colour(s) of any remaining paint might be, and are there any numbers or letters stamped anywhere, or labels of any kind ?
These would most likely be found on the more 'solid' parts, such as the hinges.
Are you able to state what you think the colour(s) of any remaining paint might be, and are there any numbers or letters stamped anywhere, or labels of any kind ?
These would most likely be found on the more 'solid' parts, such as the hinges.
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- #3
Another Latin-loving beggar that can't sleep! Thank you for your prompt post, Airframes! I have passed your request for more detail on to the volunteers at the Museum and will be back here on site when I hear back from them. Cheshire is a good way from the West Country but always a 'cuppa' here if you are heading towards Devon Best wishes Fontes
Airframes
Benevolens Magister
You're welcome.
Any numbers or other markings found may not mean much to me, but there might be others here who can help. Meanwhile, I'll see what I can find regarding Luftwaffe crashes in the area, if any.
Any numbers or other markings found may not mean much to me, but there might be others here who can help. Meanwhile, I'll see what I can find regarding Luftwaffe crashes in the area, if any.
Kingscoy
Senior Airman
When Luftwaffe look for numbers that start with R8. R8 is always followed by the aircraft type no. and then a part number....for example R8 111 .... Heinkel He111.
Airframes
Benevolens Magister
Good info Sander.
Jut been looking at the pics again, and those hinge attachment flanges also look similar to those on the Ju88.
Jut been looking at the pics again, and those hinge attachment flanges also look similar to those on the Ju88.
Kingscoy
Senior Airman
I think as you already mentioned Terry that those hinges will be the most likely place a number can be found
Crimea_River
Marshal
Numbers would be the key. However, my 2 cents: the inner surfaces look to have been coated with zinc chromate which would preclude a German aircraft in my opinion.
Airframes
Benevolens Magister
I wasn't sure if that was ZC, or another colour. Hard to be positive without seeing it 'in the flesh', or in photos in neutral light, close up.
same with what appears to be traces of paint on the outer surfaces - my first though was perhaps OD, but fading and exposure over the years could, and would, very easily alter the original shade(s).
same with what appears to be traces of paint on the outer surfaces - my first though was perhaps OD, but fading and exposure over the years could, and would, very easily alter the original shade(s).
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- #10
Thank you all for your contributions, which I have found very interesting indeed. I had a (for me) surprising reply back from the Museum today, where they seem to have known much more about matters than I had been given to realise. One of the principal volunteers, Robin Gilbert, writes: "Thanks for your kind remarks and the result of your query over the old wing part. There can be no doubt whatsoever that this came from the Heinkel HE111 that crashed at Longfields Farm Smeatharpe July 26th 1940.
I personally believe this is from the right aileron or elevator, Flaps do not have Trim Tabs and the two small hinge mountings in the cut out area at the rear edge seem to indicate that they were for a trim mechanism. Best wishes, Robin"
However, although this seems to tie things down nicely, I'll still pop over and have a look at the hinges with a magnifying glass to see if we can make it game, set and match. About the interesting zinc chromate observation, I wonder if such a texture could possibly stand up to over 70 years of prevailing winds and rain (and probably some animal "attention" to boot) without losing at least some of its original tone and in admittedly limited photographs? Is there a simple test for zinc chromate? I'm thinking it might be better science to try to establish it conclusively or to exclude it, especially if I can find no serial numbers. But thank you all again - fascinating stuff! Fontes
I personally believe this is from the right aileron or elevator, Flaps do not have Trim Tabs and the two small hinge mountings in the cut out area at the rear edge seem to indicate that they were for a trim mechanism. Best wishes, Robin"
However, although this seems to tie things down nicely, I'll still pop over and have a look at the hinges with a magnifying glass to see if we can make it game, set and match. About the interesting zinc chromate observation, I wonder if such a texture could possibly stand up to over 70 years of prevailing winds and rain (and probably some animal "attention" to boot) without losing at least some of its original tone and in admittedly limited photographs? Is there a simple test for zinc chromate? I'm thinking it might be better science to try to establish it conclusively or to exclude it, especially if I can find no serial numbers. But thank you all again - fascinating stuff! Fontes
Crimea_River
Marshal
"There can be no doubt whatsoever that this came from the Heinkel HE111 that crashed at Longfields Farm Smeatharpe July 26th 1940...."
Mr. Gilbert should be able to substantiate why he's determined the provenance of this artifact to be beyond doubt.
Mr. Gilbert should be able to substantiate why he's determined the provenance of this artifact to be beyond doubt.
Airframes
Benevolens Magister
I agree with Andy.
I wasn't aware that the 'cut out' was such, and had traces of hinges internally. I thought it was perhaps just damage.
If it is from a Heinkel, then the shape, and apparent size, would suggest an aileron.
I don't know enough of the science to suggest tests for zinc chromate, but, if the surface is cleaned, then it should show a slight metallic look, rather like thin paint over a metallic surface, the colour being a sickly green or green/yellow shade. However, looking at the photos, it could be RLM 02 or a similar shade internal primer, which is a greyish green in colour.
The aircraft that crashed at Longfield farm, Smeathorpe, was a Heinkel He-111H-4 of 1/KG4 codes 5J + AH, and came down at 00.55 hrs, following an unexplained explosion. It had departed Cherbourg on a mine-laying operation between Lyme Regis and Sidmouth.
Details of the crew, and two photos of the wreck are shown in Volume 1 of 'Luftwaffe Crash Archive', by Nigel Parker.
I wasn't aware that the 'cut out' was such, and had traces of hinges internally. I thought it was perhaps just damage.
If it is from a Heinkel, then the shape, and apparent size, would suggest an aileron.
I don't know enough of the science to suggest tests for zinc chromate, but, if the surface is cleaned, then it should show a slight metallic look, rather like thin paint over a metallic surface, the colour being a sickly green or green/yellow shade. However, looking at the photos, it could be RLM 02 or a similar shade internal primer, which is a greyish green in colour.
The aircraft that crashed at Longfield farm, Smeathorpe, was a Heinkel He-111H-4 of 1/KG4 codes 5J + AH, and came down at 00.55 hrs, following an unexplained explosion. It had departed Cherbourg on a mine-laying operation between Lyme Regis and Sidmouth.
Details of the crew, and two photos of the wreck are shown in Volume 1 of 'Luftwaffe Crash Archive', by Nigel Parker.
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- #13
Thank you, both! I am away for a couple of days to Kent but will take up the cudgels again from Monday and let you and the Forum know of any developments. Thank you very much for the information about the 1940 crash. I don't know whether Robin has that degree of detail. I will try to lift a text image from Nigel Parker's archive for the Museum. As Tesco would have us believe: "Every little helps". Best wishes. Fontes
Airframes
Benevolens Magister
Look forward to learning more.
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- #15
Hello, Airframes, Kingscoy and others interested. Some time later... The Museum had closed down for the winter season but Robin drove a good distance today to open it up for me to have a look at the hinges. Armed with a magnifying glass, an electric toothbrush and some Vaseline, I managed to clean off a hinge. But for your guidance, I would never have seen a number at all but it was there! The photo attached isn't up to much, given the angle and lighting, but I can see - as clearly as I can - R8 (left of rivet) 711313. What do you folk think; it seems pretty conclusive to me? Thank you all for your thoughtful advice. Kind regards Fontes
Crimea_River
Marshal
Still think it looks like green zinc chromate primer. The Germans didn't use it.
Airframes
Benevolens Magister
I agree, that looks like green chromate, or even interior green, although it might be the effect of lighting or camera flash.
However, the figure '3' appears to be in the German style, so still possible.
Could the 'R8' signify the Rostock factory ?
However, the figure '3' appears to be in the German style, so still possible.
Could the 'R8' signify the Rostock factory ?
vikingBerserker
Lieutenant General
Unless I have misjudged the size of the bricks, the size, shape and hinge placement certainly conforms to the He 111 horizontal stabilizer.
However the color is baffling. The green in the last pic is pretty pronounced. I could see the lighter grayish color being RLM 02 breaking down and fading, but the green leaves me at a loss.
Is it possible the farmer painted it at one time?
However the color is baffling. The green in the last pic is pretty pronounced. I could see the lighter grayish color being RLM 02 breaking down and fading, but the green leaves me at a loss.
Is it possible the farmer painted it at one time?
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- #19
Thank you, VikingsBeserker! I am a complete layman in this but my observation would be that the green is typical of metal which has been allowed to lie untreated as a gap-filler to keep sheep in or out. We see it in our hedgerows all the time. My best guess is that the colour would be the result of deeply ingrained lichen staining. Farmers kick the metal into place rather than paint it! I am now a little confused by the response as, in an earlier post, Kingscoy talked clearly about the indicator "R8" as a likely prefix and here we have... R8. I have always been taught that in approaching probability theory, Occam's razor should apply: "If you hear the sound of hoof-beats, think horses not zebras" We know that an He111 crashed in the vicinity in 1940 (please see earlier posts); is the "R8" then not fairly conclusive? There is no reported history of other aircraft casualties in the area. But still fascinated by the thread, so thank you all! Fontes
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- #20
Hello, Folks - here is Robin Gilbert's response to the present state of play.
" Richard, thanks for the update... From my point of view there is no doubt that section in the Heritage Centre is from the Heinkel that came down on my grandmother's poultry farm, July 26th [1940]. It was the only aircraft that crashed with in the vicinity during WW2.
The comments made by 'Airframes' are spot on and the ID plate [please see below] states the aircraft was built at Rostock."
Robin went on to mention a photograph of the right side of the crashed aircraft which he asked me not to publish. When I asked why, he replied:
Re: Not wishing the copy of the photo to be circulated; this is because of the source that we obtained it from, for use in our copyright booklet "The Blackdown's Trophy". These we produce and sell for £3-00 to help raise funds for the trust. The first edition, which I researched and provided with the help of a good friend, went on sale in 2007.
Since then there have been two up-dates. The last was the inclusion of the photo in question and the photo of ID plate, recently discovered after the bereavement of a local lady who had family members in the local Home Guard.
Undoubtedly they were among the first service people on the scene that night. The ID plate must have been taken as a souvenir and is now on display at the Upottery Heritage Centre.
The guys in the photo are RAF, most likely from Exeter. Please note that one picture shows a tent. They were there to guard the wreckage. The investigating officer was Wing Commander S. John Peskett who was appointed as an intelligence officer on the Air Staff in 1939. First employed in France then during the Dunkirk evacuation, made his way home. He wrote a book called 'Strange Intelligence'. I have a copy. In it, he refers to the incident and includes a photo of his Staff car reversed to the nose of the wreckage and his WAAF driver syphoning high octane petrol into the vehicle aided by an RAF guy. This photo is on view at the Heritage Centre and in the "Blackdown Trophy" booklet. An interesting point that came out of his book was that this Heinkel had self-sealing fuel tanks, encased inside of a cow hide.
If I were you, I would get back on your forum to 'Airframes' and let him know that he is 100% on the ball and we have conclusive proof the Heinkel in question was built at Rostock. Best regards, Robin".
I think I'll end the thread with this as it will probably be difficult to add more. I am very grateful to you all for your contributions - what a cracking site! Best wishes Fontes
" Richard, thanks for the update... From my point of view there is no doubt that section in the Heritage Centre is from the Heinkel that came down on my grandmother's poultry farm, July 26th [1940]. It was the only aircraft that crashed with in the vicinity during WW2.
The comments made by 'Airframes' are spot on and the ID plate [please see below] states the aircraft was built at Rostock."
Robin went on to mention a photograph of the right side of the crashed aircraft which he asked me not to publish. When I asked why, he replied:
Re: Not wishing the copy of the photo to be circulated; this is because of the source that we obtained it from, for use in our copyright booklet "The Blackdown's Trophy". These we produce and sell for £3-00 to help raise funds for the trust. The first edition, which I researched and provided with the help of a good friend, went on sale in 2007.
Since then there have been two up-dates. The last was the inclusion of the photo in question and the photo of ID plate, recently discovered after the bereavement of a local lady who had family members in the local Home Guard.
Undoubtedly they were among the first service people on the scene that night. The ID plate must have been taken as a souvenir and is now on display at the Upottery Heritage Centre.
The guys in the photo are RAF, most likely from Exeter. Please note that one picture shows a tent. They were there to guard the wreckage. The investigating officer was Wing Commander S. John Peskett who was appointed as an intelligence officer on the Air Staff in 1939. First employed in France then during the Dunkirk evacuation, made his way home. He wrote a book called 'Strange Intelligence'. I have a copy. In it, he refers to the incident and includes a photo of his Staff car reversed to the nose of the wreckage and his WAAF driver syphoning high octane petrol into the vehicle aided by an RAF guy. This photo is on view at the Heritage Centre and in the "Blackdown Trophy" booklet. An interesting point that came out of his book was that this Heinkel had self-sealing fuel tanks, encased inside of a cow hide.
If I were you, I would get back on your forum to 'Airframes' and let him know that he is 100% on the ball and we have conclusive proof the Heinkel in question was built at Rostock. Best regards, Robin".
I think I'll end the thread with this as it will probably be difficult to add more. I am very grateful to you all for your contributions - what a cracking site! Best wishes Fontes
