Help on Spitfire 11B

[SpitTrop]

Hello folks, my first posting!
Does anybody know when the Spitfire 11B first went into operational service? The 11B was the first operational Spit armed with 2x20mm cannon, the 1B carried cannons but was not operational I believe.
I'm wondering whether the 11B got into action late in 1940, or was it 1941? Thanks.

 

[Glider]

I cannot be certain but I don't believe the IIB saw active front line service. The IB did for a short while in the BOB, but was soon withdrawn as the guns were unreliable and the squadron was re-equipped with 1A's.
I thought the V came into service and II's were equipped with cannon making the IIb before being used for training. It should be remembered that the initial Mark V's were a's with the 8 x 303, closely followed by the VB we are all used to seeing.

 

[The Jug Rules!]

I didn't know any mk.I or mk.II models of the spitfire carried cannons. The only modes i have ever seen mounting cannons were spitfire V's or later.

 

[Wurger]

Hallo guys!!!
It is possible Gnomy is right.However, in TBU no.58 about Spits MkI-V is stated that the first serie of Spits consisted of 1566 MkI mostly equipped with wing"A" and 30 Spits with "B"wings.Then the new version MkII was started producing at Castle Bromwich factory.The MkII was equipped with a new RR Merlin XII engine and 33 kg armour addictionally.The all serie consisted of 920 spitfires ( 750- MkIIA and 170- MKIIB with 20mm cannons).The RAF squadrons were equipped with them at the end of 1940.In Mike Spick's book I've found the confirmation of this.
In TBU no.58 I've found also the info that 303 Polish squadron used MkIIB during the middle months of 1941,306 PAF sqn. was equipped with MKIIB from July to December 1941,308 PAF sqn. from July to September 1941 and 315 PAF sqn in the same period of 1941.

 

[Wurger]

The another info I've found in SAM Publication Modellers-datafile no.3 is that the first squadron to recieve was the 611st Sqdn at Digby in August 1940.And then The 19th, 74th, and 266th Sqdns.Limited numbers of the MKII saw combat in the latter stages of The Battle of Britain.Judging by the numbers of built MKIIAs and MKIIB it is possible. But it seems that the MkIIAs were taken a part mostly.Besides I've found two shots of the Polish Spits MkIIB, the first UZ-N serial P8342 of 306 Polish Sqdn,flown by T.H.Rolski,the second RF-A serial no.P8385 from The 303 Polish Sqdn.Unfortunately, the pictures haven't been available for me yet.
There others:

 

[Glider]

19 Squadron used the Spit 1B during the BOB but re-equipped with !A's and some were also issued to 92 squadron.
I suspect that the Polish squadrons were given the IIB's while training as Mk V spits started to be issued to sqadrons from Feb - March 1941 but could be wrong

 

[Wurger]

According to TBU no.58 the first spits MkII appeared in Polish Sqdns at the beginning of the 1941.And they were using to the end of 1941 when were replaced by MKV.The changes were taken to the end by the 1st January 1942.So, both MkIIA and MKIIB were used by almost all year 1941.I don't think the polish pilots used them for training only.But I can be wrong certainly.

best regards

 

[Glider]

No, I think your right, they were more than likely to have used them for opps. If they had held them for 2-3 months then it could have been training only but not that length of time.

 

[Wurger]

Thanks a lot Glider
However, some Polish Sqdn. used them really three months

 

[SpitTrop]

Wow - what an active forum this is, I've only been away a couple of days too!
Funny enough I went to the Aeromart at Shoreham airport on Saturday, and I picked up a tatty old copy of Green's bible "Famous fighters of WW2" 1968.
In it he says that "cannon-armed Spits got into combat during the latter stages of the BoB", as that officially ended late Oct 1940, and 1B's were apparently not successful enough due to cannon problems, it looks like 11B's might have seen combat during Sept-Oct 1940?

 

[Wurger]

As I know pilots, they could fight during BOB flown IIB especially, if their squadrons were equipped with the version of the Spit.

 

[KraziKanuK]

P8342 was first a mg armed Spit, later converted to a IIb. It was built (as IIb) 25-4-41.

P8649 was built 6-5-41.

Spitfire: The History lists the converted a/c.

All told there was 170 IIbs produced plus some IIas.

 

[Wurger]

Hallo KraziKanuK

a very interesting info

 

[Sgt. Pappy]

Hey everyone... I have a question.. well, more like a billion lol. Sorry for the overload but they've been bugging me:

1) Could any Spitfire carry rockets? If so, how many rockets could they carry, and which variants could cary them?

2) Did bombs and/or rockets have arming switches in the cockpit of any Spit? If not, then will the bombs just explode if the Spit goes into a dive?

3) Did the Spitfire Mk.VIII have laminar flow wings?

4) Could any Spitfire carry 1000 lbs. of bombs in the form of 2 X 500 lb. or 1 X 1000 lb.? If so, which variants (also, it may not be about Spits, but could any Tempests hold both bombs and rockets at the same time)?

5) Did any Spitfire with 'e' or 'c' type wings ever carry 4 X 20mm cannon operationally?

*pants* Whoo.. haha it's a lot and I've tried looking everywhere for the info and I've blown up a few times in the process. Thanks for any info!

 

[Gnomey]

1) No, Spitfire's didn't carry rockets during the war
2) Don't know
3) No, only the Spiteful had laminar flow wings
4) Not until after the war - mainly 250lbs during
5) Pretty sure they did majority were the 2x20mm 4x303 or 2x20mm 2 x 50 cal though

 

[plan_D]

The Spitfire Mk.21 was equipped with four 20-mm Hispano Mk.II cannon operationally. It served with No.91 Sqdn. and undertook 154 sorties before VE-Day. Two Mk.21 Spitfires were lost to ground fire, and a Biber-class midget submarine was destroyed.

 

[Brain32]

SpitfireMkVc with trop filter carried 4x20mm HispanoMkII cannons too, it served in Africa. As for rockets SeafireIII could carry 4x60lbs rockets...

 

[Jabberwocky]

Hey everyone... I have a question.. well, more like a billion lol. Sorry for the overload but they've been bugging me:

1) Could any Spitfire carry rockets? If so, how many rockets could they carry, and which variants could cary them?

2) Did bombs and/or rockets have arming switches in the cockpit of any Spit? If not, then will the bombs just explode if the Spit goes into a dive?

3) Did the Spitfire Mk.VIII have laminar flow wings?

4) Could any Spitfire carry 1000 lbs. of bombs in the form of 2 X 500 lb. or 1 X 1000 lb.? If so, which variants (also, it may not be about Spits, but could any Tempests hold both bombs and rockets at the same time)?

5) Did any Spitfire with 'e' or 'c' type wings ever carry 4 X 20mm cannon operationally?

*pants* Whoo.. haha it's a lot and I've tried looking everywhere for the info and I've blown up a few times in the process. Thanks for any info!

Hate to contradict Gnomey but

1) The Spitfire IX could carry a 60lbs rocket under each wing to substitute for a 250 lbr. I have several photographs of Spitfire IXs armed with 2 x 60 lbr rockets and 1 x 500 lbs bomb. There were trials with up to 4 under each wing but few, if any, operational.

Seafire marks could also carry 3 60lbs rockets under each wing.

2) Don't know either. However, Spitfire Vcs flying out of Malta could chose which wing to drop their bombs from or from both together, and sometimes got 'stuck' bombs during the attack dive, so I would assume that the fuses were contact, rod or pistol type.

3) No. It had the standard Spitfire wing. Some early production airframes had extended wing tips though, but these were generally removed in service.

4) Yes, but only post war. The Spitfire Mk XVIII was cleared for 500 lbs on each of 3 weapons points, for a total of 1500 lbs.

The external armament development was

Spitfire V: 2x 250
Spitfire IX: 2 x250 and 1 x 500
Spitfire XVIII: 3 x 500

Tempests were rarely used as bomb carriers during the war, being the preferred low altitude fighter of the RAF from the middle of 1944 until the end of the war. They were cleared for 4 60lbs rockets or 250, 500 or 1000 lbs bombs under each wing. The rockets were never used operationally during the war.

Typhoons were grouped into rocket or bomber squadrons, primarily after training and operational performance had revealed that a squadron was more efficient and accurate if it specialised in one role, instead of both. Typhoons didn't carry both rockets and bombs simultaneously.

5. There were several operational squadrons out of Malta, Egypt and Australia who flew Spitfire Mk Vcs with 4 cannon armament. The SAAF was also supplied with some. For a while the 4 cannon Spitfire was the dominant fighter over Malta.

I also have pictures of an Australian Mk VIII with 4 cannon and extended wingtip, a rare combination indeed.

Apart from on the Mk Vc, 4 cannon armed Spitfires were very rare.

The 'e' wing was developed to hold the .50 calibre Browning HMG inboard of the Hispano cannon. However, it was capable of carrying an armament of either 2 Hispanos or 1 Hispano and 4 Browning .303 MGs. Generally the 'e' designation refers specifically to Spitfires with the mixed .50 cal and 20mm armament. For instance F. Mk IXe or FR. Mk XIVe

 

[Wurger]

Nice info there.

 

[Sgt. Pappy]

Wow thanks Gnomey and Jabberwockey!! FINALLY I have the info! lol
and sorry I keep wondering .. but why did the Tempest have a drop in performance above 25,000'? And I've also noticed that the Tempest has room between its undercarriage to hold a bomb.. too bad they didn't let it.

I remember that the original Mk.I Tempest was a much better performer but the large oil coolers recessed in the wings were distrusted by the Air ministry especially due to the fact that barely any Luftwaffe fighters were anywhere to be seen.