How about a little flip-flop

[drgondog]

If there are no escort fighters for the bombers, how about the A26 invader? You could put jet-assist take-off packs to get it up to altitude, then, with its 350 mph speed, 10 x .50 cal. mg's and 14 x 5 inch rockets it could mess with a few bombers.

It would do fine (as well as A-70) for middle altitude British bombers but would struugle to get to 25K against B-17s. Its service ceiling was 22K. Also, it won't do near 350 with a load. Last - it didn't make it to combat until mid 1944, by which time Allied fighters had the range to intercept over Germany.

 

[davebender]

I believe the Germans would have solved the early issues with the P-38 in a shorter time.

I expect so. However if the Luftwaffe did not want the Fw-187 then I see no reason they would want the P-38 either.

 

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

In this scenario I think I would have to go with a P-38 armed with 108s.

Nothing against the .50s, it is a great weapon and against fighters perfectly suited, but for bombers I would rather have some cannons.

 

[renrich]

There were 200 F4U1Cs with four 20 mms built for the Navy. I assume the Navy did not like them for their purposes as well as the ones with 50 BMGs. They would have had plenty of performance for bomber interceptors and had plenty of range also. Much more than the FW 190 or ME109.

 

[GrauGeist]

I wouldn't rule out the "Jug" for intercepting.

Sure it's time to altitude wasn't all that great, but with advanced warning, it would have enough time to get on station.

As far as cannons are concerned, sure you could stuff some 30mm in there. It was done with the Fw190's wings. Keep in mind that the 262 was packing 4 Mk108 cannon, and it could deliver horrific damage to it's target. Why not 2 or 4 internal Mk108 or Mk103 cannons and a couple wing pods with the same?

And with a little work, I'm sure you could place a couple MGs in the cowling. The Germans (and a good deal of other European nations) were masters of syncronized cowl weapons.

While the P-38 would be a good interceptor, nothing compares to the brutal punishment the P-47 could take and still dish it out. That is what you want for a bomber killer. Attacking a "heavy" was a task that many never returned from and the P-38 just didn't offer the pilot the same amount of protection.

But it's real hard to imagine a "Re47A1a" tearing through a box of B-24s!

 

[tomo pauk]

But it's real hard to imagine a "Re47A1a" tearing through a box of B-24s!

Ja, unsere "Republik sieben-und-vierzich a-enins-a" ist ein uberfileger!!!

 

[Glider]

I believe the Germans would have solved the early issues with the P-38 in a shorter time. The late P-38J, if available in mid 1943 would have fared ok against the P-51/P-47 and Spit.

Can I ask what make you think that the Germans would have sorted the P-38 issues more effectively than the USA? The US threw a lot of resources into resolving the issues and I cannot see how the Germans or anyone else would have done the job any quicker.

 

[timshatz]

Often wondered if it were possible to put 6 of the 20MM cannon in the P47s wings. I could see 4 in there, no problem. But would there be space for 6?

Failing that, can you put 4 of the 30MMs in the wings of a P47. Maybe have to lay them sideways. But that combination, P47 with 4 MK108s cannon, two in each wing, with the survivability of that aircraft, would be deadly against a bomber formation.

That would be a world beater of a bomber killer for the period of WW2.

 

[tomo pauk]

Well, latest (K-16?) version of the Bf-109 did have the MK 108 in each wing, and many British planes did have 4 x 20mm; F-4U also. So I see no trouble for 4 MK 108s in Jug's wings.

 

[Colin1]

How many decades (centuries?) would take it for Germans to install the cannons in the ultra-thin and weak wings of P-47?

...I see no trouble for 4 MK 108s in Jug's wings.

You're just trying to confuse me, aren't you?

 

[tomo pauk]

Finally someone to react...

 

[MikeGazdik]

I agree the Germans may have had the P-38 on line sooner the the U.S. I was going to bring that up but hoped someone else would. The Air Corps did a foolish thing with the P-38 prototype which ended up writing it off and delaying the aircraft by as much as a year.

I didn't think about the range of the Lightning letting it get to the escorts before the bombers were over target. That is quite the game changer. I know there are other twins made by Germany and the UK, but none of them can go fighter to fighter like the Lightning.

I think that makes an even better case for the Lockheed.

 

[vikingBerserker]

I'd go with the Gloster Meteor with 6 x 20mm cannons.

 

[davebender]

there are other twins made by Germany and the UK, but none of them can go fighter to fighter like the Lightning.

The loaded weight of the P-38 was 50% greater then the loaded weight of the Fw-187. With similiar engines (DB605 in this scenerio) I think the Fw-187 would be faster, accelerate better and have a superior rate of climb. The Fw-187 also has a lower wing loading. It will likely be capable of tighter turns. The overall smaller size likely gives the Fw-187 a superior rate of roll.

Despite all these advantages the Luftwaffe elected not to procure the Fw-187. So I don't think the P-38 stands a chance to be mass produced in Germany.

 

[davparlr]

What Allied fighter, if put into use by the Luftwaffe, would have been most effective at stopping the daylight bombing campaign of the 8th AF.

And its a double edged sword, because if the Germans developed the plane in question, the allies would not have had the same aircraft.

The answer is obvious to me, the P-51. If the Allies did not have the P-51, daylight bombing over Germany would have most likely been stopped.

 

[olbrat]

If I'm not mistaken, some versions of the P-38 also were also fitted with under-wing pods and under-fueselage pods. With this set-up, I imagine you could utilize almost any ordinance, or combination of weapons systems you wanted. With radar in one pod, you could even make yourself a nasty night-time bomber killer.

 

[GrauGeist]

I'd go with the Gloster Meteor with 6 x 20mm cannons.

The Gloster Meteor was a jet, you have a Brewster Buffalo (F2) posted?

 

[Glider]

The answer is obvious to me, the P-51. If the Allies did not have the P-51, daylight bombing over Germany would have most likely been stopped.

I like the thinking behind this, cheap, simple, and foolproof, just wish that I had thought of it first.

 

[Amsel]

The Gloster Meteor was a jet, you have a Brewster Buffalo (F2) posted?

Looks like the Brewster is his sig.

Nice sig btw.

 

[drgondog]

The answer is obvious to me, the P-51. If the Allies did not have the P-51, daylight bombing over Germany would have most likely been stopped.

Dave - the fall back was the P-38 - just accept higher losses in 8th AF FC through May, and fewer scores against the LW.

But I agree based on the premise of the thread that Mustang is the best ship to take away from Allies. The argument for the P-38 ship design in 1937-1938, is that it would have been available to attack bombers in 1940 and do a better job of escort than the 110's (performance) and 109's (range with near performance) in BoB