How about a little flip-flop (1 Viewer)

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Can I ask what make you think that the Germans would have sorted the P-38 issues more effectively than the USA? The US threw a lot of resources into resolving the issues and I cannot see how the Germans or anyone else would have done the job any quicker.

The Germans would not have been so stupid as to lose the prototype on a publicity speed run and had a year more to study the issues with dive and high altitude intercooler issues.

The tragic problem with the P-38 is that it was built with only partial funding so the investment in production tooling was not made prior to prototype.

When the XP-38 crashed in Jan 1941 it took another year to put another ship in the air - by that time the Army was in a huge hurry and production versions were ordered before flight test started. A lot of mistakes and solutions were discovered but the requirements for production over rode the insertion of airframe /tooling fixes.
 
I'm thinking on Spitfire or Hurricane. The US good fighters coming too late the path of war was already done. Need take something that can win the BoB at luftwaffe, something that can change the war.


p.s P-47 it's not good choice, what engine can put in it the Germans??
 
if we take out also the engine from allied side my choice it's simply merlin so no hurricane, spitfire, mustang. hard for raf fightning BoB with peregrine or mercury engined fighters
 
U'd shoot a hellovalot of .50 cal rounds to drop a B-17.....

Yes, but a P-47 throws out a lot of rounds per second. A two second burst of P-47 fire would deliver over 200 .50 caliber rounds. I suspect this is enough to decimate a crew, cut a wing off of any bomber, or blast a radial into smitereens, especially if it is focused fire. The car in the attached pix has about 50 30-06 and 45 cal rounds (at close range) shown. Multiply that by four, make the round 50 cal and I think you can get a feel for the destruction a two second burst from a P-47 would do to that car, probably totally destroy it, and it is made out of steel.
 

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Vincenzo, I must challenge your notion that the good American fighters came when the war in Europe was already done, when the P-38, P-47 and even the P-51 were introduced in the ETO, the war in Europe was reaching its climax but still was far from over. Even the P-51B which began to see action in late 1943 was present when the Allies turned the tide of the war against Nazi Germany; if the P-38 or P-51 would had been designed in Germany in the same period of time they were designed in the US, from the beginning they would had been matched with the Daimler-Benz engine and therefore would had been a threat to the allies bombers they historically defended.
 
Vincenzo, I must challenge your notion that the good American fighters came when the war in Europe was already done, when the P-38, P-47 and even the P-51 were introduced in the ETO, the war in Europe was reaching its climax but still was far from over. Even the P-51B which began to see action in late 1943 was present when the Allies turned the tide of the war against Nazi Germany; if the P-38 or P-51 would had been designed in Germany in the same period of time they were designed in the US, from the beginning they would had been matched with the Daimler-Benz engine and therefore would had been a threat to the allies bombers they historically defended.

P-38, the first, come in very late '42 too late for change the war, need exchange course of war before, maybe in '40
 
Even if we accept that the war in Europe was decided in 1942, the US planes did play a significant role in that:
P-36, P-39, P-40, A-20, B-25, B-26, Martin 167/Maryland Baltimore, C-47, AT-6, F-4F, P-51, Lockheed Hudson Ventura, PBY Catalina, B-17 ...

Many were used even before Pearl Harbour.
 
I'm thinking on Spitfire or Hurricane. The US good fighters coming too late the path of war was already done. Need take something that can win the BoB at luftwaffe, something that can change the war.

P-47 it's not good choice, what engine can put in it the Germans??
I don't think the Luftwaffe would thank you for flip-flopping the Hurricane...
The Spitfire will keep the Luftwaffe out of your back yard but with its inherent range issues you will have problems projecting force into his. However, flip-flopping the Spitfire means you've left the Allies with the P-38, 47 and 51 and merely given the Luftwaffe a capability that they already possess in the Bf109.

How can we flip-flop the P-47 airframe without the engine? If we're doing that then the airframe wouldn't have been designed to house the R28 and all of its associated turbo plumbing, it would have looked different to house a German engine ergo it wouldn't have been a P-47.

P-38, the first, come in very late '42 too late for change the war, need exchange course of war before, maybe in '40
Your 'path of war' was far from done in 1942 wrt to US fighters
Daylight strategic bombing still lacked a premier fighter in a version of the P-51 that could take the heavies deep into the Reich and engage the Luftwaffe on more or less equal terms.

Ground attack missions had yet to benefit from the weight of fire and durability of the P-47, which was just as handy at high altitude.

The principal US fighters could be interpreted as having 'peaked late' wrt the UK's entry into WWII but the path of war was far from done, premier US fighters were in the thick of it when the Luftwaffe were still at the height of their capability.
 
In all the history books I have read, it is widely accepted that it was 1943 the year when the Allies were gaining momentun against the Axis powers and 1944 the decisive year which marked the fate of the Axis nations with an important progress for the Allies in both Europe and the Pacific which was almost irreversible for the Third Reich and the Japanese empire and by this time the US had fully deployed its military force throughout both theaters.
 
Hi Davparlr,

>The answer is obvious to me, the P-51. If the Allies did not have the P-51, daylight bombing over Germany would have most likely been stopped.

At least, they would have had to continue without their best long-range escort fighter, so I agree with your choice!

The Mustang IA with a DB 605A instead of the less powerful and altitude-limited V-1710-39 and with MG 151/20 cannon instead of the Hispanos would have been a rather formidable bomber interceptor, especially if flown with a reduced fuel load giving it equivalent endurance to a Fw 190A. The DB 605 Mustang could have been available in 1942, early enough to give the P-38 and P-47 fighters of the 8th Air Force a really hard time ...

Regards,

Henning (HoHun)
 
P-38, the first, come in very late '42 too late for change the war, need exchange course of war before, maybe in '40

V - here is the question posed for the thread

> What Allied fighter, if put into use by the Luftwaffe, would have been most effective at stopping the daylight bombing campaign of the 8th AF.<

First the Mustang in German hands ana DB 603/605 installed would have been ready before 8th (and 9th and 12th and 15th) BC started operations. As Dave said this is ideal because it also takes away the Mustang as a long rang escort in late 1943. Having said this the P-38 would have been ready before 8th AF started ops.

The first XP-38 crashed in Feb 1939. Because Lockheed did not build production tooling for the prototype, the next 13 YP-38s took another year due to a.) lack of tooling and b.) had to build another plant because their other contracts absorbed all the production capacity. The entire first run of P-38D's were scheduled for RAF and did not have caounter rotating prop/engine combos.

The first of the P-38D's were delivered in sep 1941 timeframe and first P-38E in October 1941. The P-38E had eliminated most of the flaws identified by the RAF and was truly combat ready. It was this version that went to PTO and Aleutians, in early 1942.

Despite all the issues and delays due to crash of prototype and delay of one year to obtain another test a/c the P-38 was ready to fight in late 1941 in squadron strength, deployed to combat in Group level strength in early April 1942.

The hypothesis that the P-38, in German hands and with assumption that this fighter would go into prduction - would have shortened the combat delivery cycle by at least 12 and maybe 18 months meaning early summer to fall 1940. Had the P-38 been available during BoB to fly Fighter Sweeps at both medium and low altitude 30 minutes before the Bombers crossed the Channel - a lot of Hurricanes and Spits would have been at risk at locations generally out of range of Me 109E's

If one further hypothesizes that the German engineers discovered compressibility issues sooner, the addition of dive flaps would have also occurred at least a year sooner - meaning Apr - Jul 1942 or earlier.. but compressibility dives would not have been a big issue in 1940 at 15,000 feet in BoB in contrast with Battle of Germany in late 1943.

There is no question the armament in 1941 would have been more effective as a bomber killer.

Simply stated the P-38 developed by Germany given the time the designs were completed at the same time in 1937 would have easily been in combat in summer of 1940, and much more capable on August 17 1942 when the 8th AF flew its first mission. It should have been more effective as a bomber destroyer than the Me 109F, equivalent or better that the FW 190A2, particularly at B-17 bombing altitudes, and been ideal for fighter bomber sweeps over England early in the morning to catch RAF bombers coming home and 8th AF bombers before take off.

Whether this is enough of a 'difference maker' or not is up to you - but 'late 1942 isn't the right answer - even for US deployment.
 
In all the history books I have read, it is widely accepted that it was 1943 the year when the Allies were gaining momentun against the Axis powers and 1944 the decisive year which marked the fate of the Axis nations with an important progress for the Allies in both Europe and the Pacific which was almost irreversible for the Third Reich and the Japanese empire and by this time the US had fully deployed its military force throughout both theaters.

The 8th and 12th AF lost momentum in July - October 1943 when multiple ~25% losses occurred at Schweinfurt/Regensburg, Schweinfurt and Munster. The LW had achieved air superiority at the line where P-47 escort stopped - roughly the German/Holland border.

In the October to early January timeframe the 8th AF was re-grouping as 8th FC surged in deployed P-47 groups, the two P-38F groups became operational and the first Mustangs group was fully operational with two more following by Feb 11, 1945.

They didn't start serious attacks against central Germany again until January then really picked up steam in February, 1944. From Big Week forward the 8th AF kept building strength and attacking as deep as eastern Poland and Czechoslovakia until, with RAF, they ran out of targets in April 1945.
 
drgondog, i don't remembered of aleutians P-38, in your scenario P-38 maybe good choice if with is lw can win BoB.
i'm not understand the flip-flop is only for airframe or also for engine?
if it's valid for engine take out merlin also give a net advantage on lw in BoB, RAF must use fighter with mercury or peregrine.

i try to explain my general position:
we can choice a plane for this flip-flop
surely first choice it's a plane that can do possible Axis win war (if there is a so plane).
If there isn't a so plane it's surely usefull a plane can stop, delayed, lighter, the bombing offensive.
It's hard tell last data for Axis victory but imho summer '42 (for some people it's already too late)
 
Is that Bonnie and Clyde's car?

Yep! To avoid murder charges, I think the cops claimed it was an accidental gun discharge!:lol:

It is interesting that the state cops laid an ambush and just just blasted them. There was no way they were going to survive to stand trial.
 
drgondog, i don't remembered of aleutians P-38, in your scenario P-38 maybe good choice if with is lw can win BoB.
i'm not understand the flip-flop is only for airframe or also for engine?

If I understood the question it was which plane (entire system) so if it is Mustang, then Merlin, if P-38 then Allison. What I suggested is take each airframe design and install German equipment if available and basically same performance.

The P-38 could have easily installed the DB series (smaller engine) and obtained good perfromance with same engine as Me 109E. Ditto P-51. In fact the P-51A could have installed the DB engines in fall of 1940 to achieve better results immediately and grow the system as the improved versions of DB 603/605 became available - ditto the P-38


if it's valid for engine take out merlin also give a net advantage on lw in BoB, RAF must use fighter with mercury or peregrine.

i try to explain my general position:
we can choice a plane for this flip-flop
surely first choice it's a plane that can do possible Axis win war (if there is a so plane).

Remember the question was about defeating the 8th AF. The 8th AF started combat ops August 17, 1942 - so the debate is which Allied Fighter do you take away from Allies and give to Luftwaffe to help defeat the 8th AF.

If there isn't a so plane it's surely usefull a plane can stop, delayed, lighter, the bombing offensive.
It's hard tell last data for Axis victory but imho summer '42 (for some people it's already too late)

Again the question wasn't about winning the war but about defeating the 8th AF. I just pointed out that the P-38 was early enough to influence even the BoB with German technology, better prototype management and earlier production tooling.
 
Hey, its up to you all to make the argument of the engine. It can go either way you want. Take the whole plane and powerplant, or equip it with a German engine. Same goes for the weapons. The plane can be reequipped with a German cannon that was available.

I still think a German P-38 would be the most affective. Plus, it would change so much more of the allied strategy to defeat it.

As said, giving the Germans the Spitfire does little in my opinion. The Spit and Messerschmitt were very close equals in performance and RANGE.

Taking the Mustang from the allies would also be good. But I don't think that would stop the 8AF. They would have had to make the P-38 do the job and bring the P-47N on line sooner.

So, lets say the 8th AF bombers are protected by Thunderbolts and Spitfires. How are they to deal with Luftwaffe Lightnings attacking the bombers? The stand-off distance a P-38 can strike from is greater because of its central armament, so they may be able to break off their attacks on the bombers sooner than the FW or ME planes of reality. If the Lightning tries to dogfight with the Spit, it is in some real trouble. But the Lightning should be able to dogfight the Thunderbolt. I could see a dive flap equipped P-38 being able to dive away from a Spitfire, but I don't think it would dive away from the Thunderbolt. I'm thinking as I'm typing, but maybe let the Spits first engage the P-38's. Once they break off and try to run or dive away, send the P-47's after them?
 
My fault don't center question on 8th bombing campaign, but if axis wins the war there is no the bombing campaign.
Back at the Mike question,
so in hypotesis that both use the engine, P-38 it's also my choice, (but i'm agree that it's very hard that lw take in service, so need also a different idea on heavy fighter in lw)
in hypotesis that like the airframe also the engine is to one side only i put my choice on Mustang/Merlin
 

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