How do you end WWIII

[Hairog]

The storyline for my WWIII 1946 campaign has reached a point where the NATO Allies have used there vast invasion forces to isolate the Soviet Forces in Southern France, Northern Europe and the Mideast.

By amphibious invasions of Trieste, Murmansk, Riga and Novorossiysk (Black Sea)and a strategic bombing campaign they have left the vast majority of the Red Army on foot and starving far from home.

They are poised to take Kursk, Belgorod, Smolensk and Stalingrad in early September, 1947.

The US has 7 Fat Boy and Little Man Nukes available for use.

Stalin has declared that the WWIII will be won at Stalingrad.

My inclination is to nuke Stalingrad and have Stalin assassinated and everyone go home after the appropriate changes in the Soviet government are made ala Germany and Japan.

I would like your suggestions as to how to end this story.

 

[herman1rg]

I think you would need to invade from Siberia also otherwide the Russians would keep staging tactical withdrawls from one salient to another, this could make the war drag on for many more years.

 

[Colin1]

How did the 'vast majority' of Soviet forces end up in N Europe and the Middle East? I'm assuming they just kept rolling after Berlin.

I'd weigh exactly the same factors that were considered for Hiroshima and Nagasaki.

The commonality is the fanatical resistance demonstrated by both Japanese and Soviet soldiers in even impossible circumstances. That would signal a desire to solve the problem with a nuke.

The difference might be the driving force behind that fanaticism; the Japanese worshipped their Emperor as a divine being, the Soviets were just more afraid of Stalin that they were of being killed by the enemy.

If Soviet forces could be turned with guarantees of good treatment and liberation from Communism, then Soviet cities could fall with ne'er a shot being fired, the Wehrmacht had and squandered this opportunity in the early stages of Barbarossa. The only problem I'm having is that with the 'vast majority' of Soviet forces elsewhere, I'm not sure it would be that stiff an objective anyway.

If it was clear that the Soviets were going to make a costly fight of it, I'd put the first nuke down on whichever city Stalin had gone to ground in, then leaflet the Soviet front lines that the entire Communist Party plus Uncle Joe were now toast. It could draw the campaign to a desirably swift close.

 

[Njaco]

I think you would have to have a conference in Copenhagen.

 

[Hairog]

How did the 'vast majority' of Soviet forces end up in N Europe and the Middle East? I'm assuming they just kept rolling after Berlin.

I'd weigh exactly the same factors that were considered for Hiroshima and Nagasaki.

The commonality is the fanatical resistance demonstrated by both Japanese and Soviet soldiers in even impossible circumstances. That would signal a desire to solve the problem with a nuke.

The difference might be the driving force behind that fanaticism; the Japanese worshipped their Emperor as a divine being, the Soviets were just more afraid of Stalin that they were of being killed by the enemy.

If Soviet forces could be turned with guarantees of good treatment and liberation from Communism, then Soviet cities could fall with ne'er a shot being fired, the Wehrmacht had and squandered this opportunity in the early stages of Barbarossa. The only problem I'm having is that with the 'vast majority' of Soviet forces elsewhere, I'm not sure it would be that stiff an objective anyway.

If it was clear that the Soviets were going to make a costly fight of it, I'd put the first nuke down on whichever city Stalin had gone to ground in, then leaflet the Soviet front lines that the entire Communist Party plus Uncle Joe were now toast. It could draw the campaign to a desirably swift close.

Good observations especially about Hitler and the Ukraine.

Go to this post if you want to find out how the Soviet Forces are far from home and trapped...

http://www.ww2aircraft.net/forum/il...e/i-need-some-help-my-jet-campaign-21786.html

Please feel free to comment on anything you see there as well. I would love some input and you seem to know what your talking about.

My take on Stalin is that he would be beyond the Urals in a bunker somewhere. But then of course he never did abandon Moscow did he?

Herman: I don't think the allies would even try to go past Moscow they would just occupy and wait. By this time fully 80% of Russia's known oil resources are in Allied hands or destroyed. Russia is out of oil period. That's what Stalingrad was all about. It was the oil. You can pull all your factories etc. back behind the mountains but nothing runs in the 1940s without oil. Nothing moves or flies with out the black gold.

This is by the way is how Hitler could have won WWII. Go for the oil in the Mideast and the Caucasus and he would have won. Instead he got sidetracked in Leningrad and Moscow.

My storyline is based on the actual Joint Chiefs of Staff's plan for 1946-48. I've taken it a lot further and actually figured out how the Western allies could have won.

I will have the first installment of this IL2 Campaign done by Xmas. It will be based on Chapter one and you will be a USAAF pilot and it will have about 12 missions and lots of jets and wonder weapons.

Thank you for all your comments and keep them coming.

 

[timshatz]

Wouldn't bother nuking Stalingrad, nothing there in the 1940s. The battle had throughly trashed the place. It was a graveyard.

Somebody else already mentioned it and the idea. but the Soviet Union was a bunch of different nationalities in one hodpodge group. Not a unified country. If you offer nationhood to each of the seperate nationalities (much like happened after the collapse of 1991) you can dismantle the SU from within and without. Think of the allies fighting a war of liberation (similar to the invasion of Iraq, maybe with similar events happening).

As for invasions, that would be tricky. Murmansk is the only one I wouldn't bother with. Too far north and not really needed. The others are ok, Black Sea attack is nice as long as it is suported by an overland attack.

Good move on stopping at Moscow. Suggest the B29 comes in at that point and suppresses the industry east of the Urals. If any city is going to get nuked (and they definitely will), I would suggest "Tankograd" as being the best one.

Another idea to toss in there. Most of the Communist Groups in the West supported WW2 in Europe because the Germans were attacking the SU. With the western allies attacking the SU, these groups will start stirring up trouble. Not talking partisan activity, more political. Labor strikes and the like. Might be good to toss that in.

Also, how are you handling the Germans? What are they doing?

 

[Hairog]

Good ideas timshatz:

The Germans are joining the newly and hastily created NATO. There will be a limited amount of German veterans joining in with their new allies.

I will have careers for them in my WWIII 1946 Campaign in IL2. They will be flying ME 262, 109Z, GO 229, DO 335 and the TA 183. The Russians will get the Lerche, ME 163, HE 162, AR 234 and all the Soviet jets and rocket planes. So all the wonder weapons you have always wondered about will be used and used heavily.

I guarantee it will be fun and historically logical. No massive leaps of faith. This is truly a "What If" alternative history storyline.

 

[timshatz]

Hairog, glad I can be of help.

It'll be interesting to see how the US and British bomber forces are handled. Strategic bombing was not a factor of the war in the East but adding it will make things pop. I imagine most of the targets at the start will be rail junctions and supply dumps. Nothing being built in Eastern Europe at that time. After two armies rolled over the locals, they probably had their handls full just trying to survive.

But the invasion on the Black Sea has great potential. Getting it for Bomber bases to attack east of the Urals would be an interesting call. The invasion itself might be something like Anzio. Suprise and first, but then the feathers fly! A lot of good air battles in that one, especially as the air aspects are the first ones to interact. After it is established, I could see bomber fleets heading east to bomb factories.

Should be very interesting.

 

[Colin1]

Personally
I'd keep the Germans out of sight, if we're trying to persuade the Soviets to secede from Communism to guarantees of good treatment, the last thing they'll need to see is German forces in the new NATO sitting in their northern ports readying strategic strike capability. They know the Germans too well by this stage, any negotiations are going to be fraught with mistrust - keep the Germans in the rear.

This won't hurt the Germans either, it is an ideal opportunity to rebuild militarily; if the sh*t does hit the fan, they can quickly reinforce any defensive line. They also know the Soviets too well by this stage and if the beleaguered Soviets have anything left in them, can provide valuable tactical nous to soak up any thrust.

By this stage, it's clear the Soviets don't want to talk and German forces can be allowed further forward although this almost certainly eliminates any chance of resumption of talks.

 

[timshatz]

Personally
I'd keep the Germans out of sight, if we're trying to persuade the Soviets to secede from Communism to guarantees of good treatment, the last thing they'll need to see is German forces in the new NATO sitting in their northern ports readying strategic strike capability. They know the Germans too well by this stage, any negotiations are going to be fraught with mistrust - keep the Germans in the rear.

This won't hurt the Germans either, it is an ideal opportunity to rebuild militarily; if the sh*t does hit the fan, they can quickly reinforce any defensive line. They also know the Soviets too well by this stage and if the beleaguered Soviets have anything left in them, can provide valuable tactical nous to soak up any thrust.

By this stage, it's clear the Soviets don't want to talk and German forces can be allowed further forward although this almost certainly eliminates any chance of resumption of talks.

Not a bad idea, when you think about it. Politically, the Germans are dynamite. Having them out of site would be a great idea. No doubt Soviet Propaganda will say otherwise. Might be an idea to have a Free German group flying at some point. A bunch of ex-Luftwaffe types, sprinkled through the US or possibly some other group that they had a better history with. Maybe the Brazilians or Argentinians. Somebody they hadn't invaded

Another interesting point would be Eastern Europeans. Czech, Pole, Lithuanians, ect. Still flying for the RAF? I'm guessing as much.

 

[Njaco]

The Russians will get the Lerche, ME 163, HE 162, AR 234 and all the Soviet jets and rocket planes. So all the wonder weapons you have always wondered about will be used and used heavily.

I wouldn't forget about some Fw 190Ds they aquired and a B-29 I believe. Any left over Lend-Lease planned?

 

[GrauGeist]

Don't forget that you can position and deploy the V1 from launch sites in the FMB...

The majority of those would have been captured by the Allies (U.S./British) as they were advancing on Germany, since the V1 production and deployment sites were predominately in north-western Europe.

The V1 would be useful in a number of situations against industrial/military targets...

 

[buffnut453]

How to stop WWIII? Easy...distract the participants by kicking off WWIV

Sorry...just couldn't resist (he said, ducking smartly under the table as the projectiles are hurled in his general direction!!!)

 

[Hairog]

Hairog, glad I can be of help.

It'll be interesting to see how the US and British bomber forces are handled. Strategic bombing was not a factor of the war in the East but adding it will make things pop. I imagine most of the targets at the start will be rail junctions and supply dumps. Nothing being built in Eastern Europe at that time. After two armies rolled over the locals, they probably had their handls full just trying to survive.

But the invasion on the Black Sea has great potential. Getting it for Bomber bases to attack east of the Urals would be an interesting call. The invasion itself might be something like Anzio. Suprise and first, but then the feathers fly! A lot of good air battles in that one, especially as the air aspects are the first ones to interact. After it is established, I could see bomber fleets heading east to bomb factories.

Should be very interesting.

I ran across a book about how WWIII would be fought from the Mideast. It seems that the official plan at the time named Griddle was two fold.

1. Make a stand in the Pyrenees

2. Go after the oil production of the USSR from Egypt

The rest of the storyline and how to win the war comes from me and from ideas of the folks like you.

There will be a massive bombing campaign but not from England and it won't be aimed at factories and civilian population centers but OIL. Everything in Plan Griddle is aimed at destroying the Soviet oil supply, refining and production facilities. Over 70 percent of the Soviet oil production is near the border with Turkey and environs. The Caucus Mountains and the northern Black Sea coast are well within reach of the massive bases set up in Egypt.

Starve the beast.

My whole storyline up till now is here.

http://www.ww2aircraft.net/forum/il...e/i-need-some-help-my-jet-campaign-21786.html

I need comments and if anyone wants to join in and help develop individual sub campaigns let me know. I already have someone working with me to developing the Murmansk Invasion sub campaign and we are really having a good time with it. Paratroops, massive sea battles, stealth attacks etc.

I've given him the parameters so that it fits into the overall storyline and then let him go at it.

If anyone is interested I need assistance with...

1. Strategic bombing campaign based in Egypt attacking the oil production centers in the Caucuses.
2. Soviet invasion of Turkey/Palestine and up to the Suez Canal.
3. The invasion of Riga in the Baltic Sea by NATO.
4. The invasion of Trieste, Italy and march through the Balaton/Slovakian/Lvov/Kiev/Kursk maps by NATO.
5. Soviet counter attack on forward fighter bases on Rhodes, Turkey and Cyprus.
6. NATO counter attack from the Pyrenees Line to take back Western Europe.
7. Numerous Naval operations such as...
Invasion of Northern Black Sea coast
Interdiction missions all over Western Europe
The Battle for the Black Sea
The Battle of the Baltic Sea
Just think of all the assets the we were going to use against Imperial Japan let loose in the Med/Black/Baltic Seas.
8. NATO counter attack in the Mideast up to Stalingrad (like Hitler could have done).

Just imagine the fun you will have designing missions with tons of those weird jets and German wonder weapons. So far I have the GO229 as a heavy fighter attacking hoards of Soviet bombers, Mig 9 and Yak 15s going head to head with YP80s, Yak 7R/Me 163/ B-6/Lerches intercepting streams of B29s escorted by 109Zs/P51s/YP80s/Me262s/TA183s, AR234 slicing in for pinpoint bombing missions and recon flights, He 162s taking on TA183s, wire guided missiles wasting bomber streams, etc.

Have you seen what a TA183s 4 x 30mm cannons can do to a Soviet bomber? How about one Lerche taking out 4 B29s with those wire guided missiles of theirs. it is very interesting and it all could have possibly happened.

Contact me at [email protected] if you want to join in the fun.

 

[Hairog]

To sum it all up…

Basically Stalin has found out that the US only has 3 very clumsy nukes on hand and decides to take a chance in May 1946. Historically his former allies had very few usable conventional forces left in Europe. In reality we only had 2 full divisions that were anywhere near combat ready at this time. Demobilization was wildly successful.

"Five months after VJ Day 8.5 million Allied soldiers had been demobilized. By June 1946 there were only two divisions ready for emergency deployment. When Truman tried to slow up the demobilization there were riots in the Armed Forces"

"The Western democracies and the Soviet Union discussed the progress of World War II and the nature of the postwar settlement at conferences in Tehran (1943), Yalta (February 1945), and Potsdam (July-August 1945). After the war, disputes between the Soviet Union and the Western democracies, particularly over the Soviet takeover of East European states, led Winston Churchill to warn in 1946 that an "iron curtain" was descending through the middle of Europe. For his part, Joseph Stalin deepened the estrangement between the United States and the Soviet Union when he asserted in 1946 that World War II was an unavoidable and inevitable consequence of "capitalist imperialism" and implied that such a war might reoccur."

"A series of studies by the JCS named Pincher presumed that the Soviets would swiftly overrun most of Europe and seize the channel ports within weeks."

So my storyline has the Soviets marching through the blasted hulk of Western Europe like a hot knife through butter. They turn north near Paris thinking that the newly formed NATO allies would be doing another Dunkirk. In reality the NATO forces where pulling back to a defensive line formed by the Pyrenees Mountains near the border of Spain and France.

By the time Stalin figures out what is happening they have formed a strong defensive line and have dug in using the mountains as an anchor. Stalin's forces hammer away at the Pyrenees Line and come to a crushing halt. Reinforcements on the way from the Chinese/Japanese theatre are ambushed at their staging areas of Minsk and Kovel by a pair of GO229 carrying nukes effectively destroying 50 divisions and the attack against the Pyrenees Line stalls in southern France.

The NATO allies start a bombing campaign aimed at the Soviet oil production facilities in the Caucuses launched from Egypt. Stalin invades the Mideast through Turkey in an attempt to stop the destruction of the oil production, his life blood. They make it as far as the Suez Canal when almost simultaneous amphibious invasions by NATO start to unfold.

Using the equipment, personnel and expertise developed by D-day and the cancelled invasion of Japan NATO invades. Beachheads are formed in Trieste, Italy, Murmansk and Riga in the Baltic and Beirut, Palestine. As the NATO forces march inland they cut off the supply lines of the Soviet forces in Southern France and along the Suez Canal then they counter attack on all fronts.

Another amphibious invasion occurs on the Black Sea far East of Sevastopol which has been nuked. This invasion force cuts off the Soviet defensive line formed in the Caucuses.

Thus a relatively small force of 50 NATO divisions has cut off hundreds of Soviet divisions in Southern France and the Mideast far from home unsupplied and starving by using the assets already on hand from the planned invasion of the Japanese homeland.

These forces drive almost unopposed towards Moscow and Stalingrad.

Any comments or questions are welcome.

 

[Colin1]

"A series of studies by the JCS named Pincher presumed that the Soviets would swiftly overrun most of Europe and seize the channel ports within weeks."

So my storyline has the Soviets marching through the blasted hulk of Western Europe like a hot knife through butter. They turn north near Paris thinking that the newly formed NATO allies would be doing another Dunkirk. In reality the NATO forces where pulling back to a defensive line formed by the Pyrenees Mountains near the border of Spain and France.

By the time Stalin figures out what is happening they have formed a strong defensive line and have dug in using the mountains as an anchor. Stalin's forces hammer away at the Pyrenees Line and come to a crushing halt

I'm a little unclear here
the Soviet drive has NATO forces reeling back to the Channel ports where Stalin hopes to pin them up against the English Channel and obliterate them?

NATO are however establishing a defensive line along the Pyrenees. Well, you wouldn't turn north near Paris to get to the Pyrenees, you'd turn south and keep going for a long time, almost 85% of the length of the country in fact (France is a pretty big country by Western European standards).

So either the geography's flawed or Red Army intel is so damned lousy that NATO in its entirety gave them the slip and headed south to set up their defensive line, while the Soviets turned north, convinced they were about to back NATO up against the English Channel.

Or am I reading it wrongly?

 

[Hairog]

Good comments.

Most of the NATO forces are in fact the US forces and most of them are no longer in Europe having been demobilized and getting on with their lives in America. The forces drawing the Soviets towards the channel are the remnants of few remaining forces that have survived the Red Armies onslaught. Made up of British, French, American and even Germans who by now have joined NATO and are our allies against the Red Menace.

Their job is not necessarily to screen but to lure the Soviets north to make it look like they are trying to keep a foothold on the mainland for a future counter attack and to keep their eyes off of the Spanish and Portuguese ports where the hastily recalled Yanks are pouring in from the US. Over 3.5 million US forces were going to be involved in the invasion of Japan and we still have the transport ships and material that was to be used for this massive undertaking. Close to 50 divisions were on the way to Japan at one time. These forces have been recalled and have been reinlisted and are pouring into the Iberian Peninsula along with their almost intact equipment.

The survivors that are still on the continent are being protected by a steel wall of 16' guns from 24 battleships, an air umbrella created by over 40 carriers and hundreds of cruisers and destroyers swarming all over the English Channel.

My premise is that the Soviets have no answer for this display of naval power. They have no way of penetrating or getting closer to the coast than 20 miles and while they try to do so the Pyrenees Line is being built and they are getting weaker and weaker with constant attacks on their supply lines by strategic bombers and fighters flying from England.

 

[Colin1]

Most of the NATO forces are in fact the US forces and most of them are no longer in Europe having been demobilized and getting on with their lives in America. The forces drawing the Soviets towards the channel are the remnants of few remaining forces that have survived the Red Armies onslaught. Made up of British, French, American and even Germans who by now have joined NATO and are our allies against the Red Menace.

Their job is not necessarily to screen but to lure the Soviets north to make it look like they are trying to keep a foothold on the mainland for a future counter attack and to keep their eyes off of the Spanish and Portuguese ports where the hastily recalled Yanks are pouring in from the US. Over 3.5 million US forces were going to be involved in the invasion of Japan and we still have the transport ships and material that was to be used for this massive undertaking. Close to 50 divisions were on the way to Japan at one time. These forces have been recalled and have been reinlisted and are pouring into the Iberian Peninsula along with their almost intact equipment

OK
sounds like I misread you

 

[Hairog]

You probably didn't. I just haven't articulated it in most of my posts.

Thank you again for making me clarifying it. I really appreciate the comments.