Nodeo-Franvier
Airman 1st Class
- 124
- Jul 13, 2020
Was FW190 Cowling unique? Does later US and Soviet designs have the same features?
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How unique was FW190 cowl design?
- Thread starter Nodeo-Franvier
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SaparotRob
Unter Gemeine Geschwader Murmeltier XIII
Totally out of my expertise but didn't the Bearcat share some similarities?
Shortround6
Major General
Which features?
The oil cooler in the leading edge of the cowl was pretty much unique.
The use of a fan was less so but fan cooled radials were still pretty rare. Some Martin PBMs had them for their Wright R-2600s, early versions didn't and later versions with P & W R-2800s did not.
Use of exhaust to help pull air through the cowl did become more widely used after the Fw 190.
Any other features of the FW 190 cowl?
The oil cooler in the leading edge of the cowl was pretty much unique.
The use of a fan was less so but fan cooled radials were still pretty rare. Some Martin PBMs had them for their Wright R-2600s, early versions didn't and later versions with P & W R-2800s did not.
Use of exhaust to help pull air through the cowl did become more widely used after the Fw 190.
Any other features of the FW 190 cowl?
Yes, I've heard the same, but I'm also dubious as there is no mention in type specific publications on the Tempest or Sea Fury. The decision to fit radials to the type go back to the Hawker Tornado, whose original Centaurus cowl was unsatisfactory, and this work transferred through to the Typhoon II, which became the Tempest and the Tempest II variant, powered by the Centaurus, so research on the matter was being done before the Brits first got their hands on an intact Fw 190 in 1942.
Perhaps our friend Callum might have reference from the archives that can confirm or deny its veracity?
Shortround6
Major General
The FW 190 did use ejector exhaust but that might be considered an exhaust vs "cowling" feature. A number of countries were trying to figure out how to use ejector exhaust on radial engines before the 190 showed up.
Perhaps some authors used "cowl" as short hand for the entire engine installation?
Perhaps some authors used "cowl" as short hand for the entire engine installation?
Mitsubishi used a fan in the very streamlined cowling for the J2M (14 cyl engine) and for the equally shaped nacelles in the Ki-67 bomber (18 cyl engine) and its derivatives (es Ki-109). Japanese are probably also the only ones to have extensively used individual exhaust stacks for their radials each fitted with a conical nozzle as thrust augmenter
I was not aware that the cowling in the FW-190 used the exhaust gases to suck more air through it. I assume it employs some kind of Venturi arrangement, right?
Yes, HG 641 was the development aircraft for the Centaurus radial installation. Initially it had a large external exhaust pipe and separately faired oil cooler intake.
Later, the oil cooler intake was moved forward and faired into the engine cowling.
Neither version had any of the well known features of the BMW 801 installation of the Fw 190 and neither worked satisfactorily. They were, in the words of Francis Mason, rendered obsolete by examination of a Focke-Wulf 190. Subsequent British radial installations were heavily influenced by the German design.
The British were working to evolve a Centaurus installation without the exhaust collector ring before June 1942 when the Luftwaffe thoughtfully delivered an intact Fw 190 at the hands of Oberleutnant Faber, but the installation that would appear on the prototype Tempest II, LA602, owed a lot to German engineering. This aircraft first flew on 28 June 1943, almost exactly a year after Faber's unintentional delivery.
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Shortround6
Major General
A number of the Japanese exhaust systems, like the one on the A6M5 used paired exhausts (2 cylinders per pipe) for 12 of the 14 cylinders. 2 cylinders got their own pipes.
The K-67 may have used paired pipes?
The B-25 used individual pipes on a number of versions.
Works well on a bomber, no so good on a fighter as the upper cylinders would be blowing the exhaust right at the cockpit.
Later US fighters with R-2800s used 3 cylinders per pipe.
Using more cylinders per pipe really degraded the exhaust thrust and even 3 per pipe was not as good as two per pipe.
The K-67 may have used paired pipes?
The B-25 used individual pipes on a number of versions.
Works well on a bomber, no so good on a fighter as the upper cylinders would be blowing the exhaust right at the cockpit.
Later US fighters with R-2800s used 3 cylinders per pipe.
Using more cylinders per pipe really degraded the exhaust thrust and even 3 per pipe was not as good as two per pipe.
- Thread starter
- #11
Nodeo-Franvier
Airman 1st Class
- 124
- Jul 13, 2020
What about the Ki-100?
There was some weird airflow system on the front of the French LeO 451 cowlings that reminded me of the Fw 190 cowling.
Hi,
what made it unique was the build-in armored oil radiator cooled by the fan and the multiple exit pipes from the radiator allowing the engine to operate under neg-G's almost indefinetily (until oil was consumed or rather until the fuel pump couldn't anymore
)
what made it unique was the build-in armored oil radiator cooled by the fan and the multiple exit pipes from the radiator allowing the engine to operate under neg-G's almost indefinetily (until oil was consumed or rather until the fuel pump couldn't anymore
)Hi,Hi,
what made it unique was the build-in armored oil radiator cooled by the fan and the multiple exit pipes from the radiator allowing the engine to operate under neg-G's almost indefinetily (until oil was consumed or rather until the fuel pump couldn't anymore
Out of curiosity, didn't some inter-war planes like the Polish PZL p.7 and p.11 have a bronze or brass cooling ring at the front of their cowls?
Seems so, from this drawing
Also this one
I think Mitsubishi continued to use them except for the very few prototypes of turbo-supercharged engines. In the Ki-100 picture it's also possible to appreciate how 'streamlined' was the cowling compared to the cylindrical ring used elsewhere.
The front ring is an exhaust collector, the oil radiator is the big black stuff under the machine gun on your picture
Exactly. This plane used a domestically produced version of the Bristol Jupiter. Bristol radials had 4 valves per cylinder, with those on the front being used for exhaust since they were better cooled by the incoming fresh air. For this reason the engine necessitated an exhaust collector ring on the front of the engine; sometimes this was made to be part of the cowling itself.
You can appreciate the exhaust pipework in this Alfa Romeo engine (which built several improved variants of the basic Jupiter engine)
Interesting claim and without anything to doubt it, I'll have to take your word for it, Steve. There's no mention in Thomas and Shores' Typhoon and Tempest Story, and Mason also doesn't mention it in his Putnam Hawker Aircraft either. It would be interesting to look at source material detailing what the Fw 190 brought to the table at Hawker.
Mason does mention it in his Typhoon and Tempest book (the imaginatively titled 'The Hawker Typhoon and Tempest').
The similarities between the later Centaurus installation and the German BMW installation are not a case of convergent evolution as the new cowl design already being developed by the British was significantly revised in the light of the examination of the Fw 190 delivered by Faber. Mason claims the British design was "rendered obsolete".
The British did not copy the German design, but the influence is obvious.
The similarities between the later Centaurus installation and the German BMW installation are not a case of convergent evolution as the new cowl design already being developed by the British was significantly revised in the light of the examination of the Fw 190 delivered by Faber. Mason claims the British design was "rendered obsolete".
The British did not copy the German design, but the influence is obvious.
Metrallaroja
Airman
- 97
- Nov 21, 2020
Unique? Dont think so...
Tons of documents in NACA archives.
ntrs.nasa.gov
Like for example a rotating cowling for the R-2800:
Tons of documents in NACA archives.
Search - NASA Technical Reports Server (NTRS)
Like for example a rotating cowling for the R-2800:
You might find this document interesting:
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