Hurricane IIc vs. B-17s B-24s

[Jerry W. Loper]

If the Hawker Hurricane IIc (armed with four 20-mm. cannon) had been a Luftwaffe instead of RAF fighter, how would it have done against USAAF B-17s and B-24s?

 

[T Bolt]

I think it would have been more a question of how the Hurricane would have done against the escorting fighters as even with 10 fifty cal. brownings those bombers were pretty vulnerable to any fighter unless they had fighter escort.

 

[timshatz]

Good point about the escort fighters. Wouldn't have lasted long against them.

Hurricane 2 would have the firepower but not the speed or the climb to get ahead and above of bombers up that high. It could do it, but not as fast as the late war Luftwaffe fighters. Hurri was a prewar design and something of a throwback. The airframe did not lend itself to the development that the 109 (born about the same time) allowed.

Given that, it would've done average against unescorted bombers, as long as it had a good vectoring. The cannons would've helped, effective against 4 engined bombers (it essentially the same armament as the FW190), But once the escorts show up, it has about the same chance of success as a 109E would've in the same situation. Not a lot.

 

[T Bolt]

Probably the best way to use it would be the way it was used in the Battle of Britain. Let a fighter with better performance drive off the escort and have the Hurricanes go in after the bombers.

 

[drgondog]

Probably the best way to use it would be the way it was used in the Battle of Britain. Let a fighter with better performance drive off the escort and have the Hurricanes go in after the bombers.

The problem is that only the Me 262 and/or Ta 152 were 'superior' to the escorting Mustangs.

Prior to P-51 the Hurricane IIc with the Merlin geared for high blower in 22-25K would have been at least as effective as the Fw 190 (IMO) at 25,000 feet - maybe not as fast but still good performance at 25K when the Fw was falling off from 20+K.

 

[Vincenzo]

The problem is that only the Me 262 and/or Ta 152 were 'superior' to the escorting Mustangs.

Prior to P-51 the Hurricane IIc with the Merlin geared for high blower in 22-25K would have been at least as effective as the Fw 190 (IMO) at 25,000 feet - maybe not as fast but still good performance at 25K when the Fw was falling off from 20+K.

afaik actual fth for hurricane IIc and 190 it's near the same

 

[Colin1]

The IIC's (clean aircraft, temperate) best altitude was around 20,000ft where it offered approx 340mph, so even if the bomber streams did oblige them and fly at that height, they'd still be no match for the escorts. At 25,000ft the IIC was barely managing 320mph; a fly-though of the bomber stream is going to be followed by a laboured catch-up phase, especially protracted if the bombers are B-24s. With a protracted catch-up being flown necessarily in a straight line at the P-51's best altitude, I wouldn't want to be a IIC pilot.

There is little performance margin allowing the IIC to go wheeling through the formation ad hoc, as soon as the IIC pilot takes evasive action against an escort, it's just ground he's got to make up again, assuming he's survived the escort. The IIC pilot will be struggling to avoid finding himself (quickly) at the rear of the bomber stream, trying to catch up again; so it's the bombers' guns to the fore (and considerably more than the IIC's Battle of Britain forebears had to endure) and the escorts' guns to the rear.

The IIC pilot's struggle to hold on to some/any kind of initiative vs the bombers is what will probably get him gunned down by the escorts.

I'll take the Fw190, the Hurricane's got too much up front that can get chewed, inline engine, ventral cooling and oil reservoir in the port wing leading edge; that upright windshield might take two strikes from a .50 cal if the pilot's having a good day, even if it is armoured.

 

[pinsog]

The Zero had 2 20mm cannon, but B17's did quite well defending themselves from them. What would the top speed of the Hurricane been at B17 bombing altitude? If it didn't have a large speed advantage over the bombers, it could have found itself struggling to overtake them while being hammered by defensive fire. Didn't the 50 outrange the 20mm?

 

[Glider]

I am sure that most will agree that without an escort the Hurricane IIc stands a good chance of doing significant damage as long as its vectored correctly, but once the escort turns up, then its day is done.

The same would apply to a number of RAF aircraft of 1943 Typhoons, Beaufighters, Spitfires Vc, Mossies you name it, they were all well armed and able to catch a cruising B17. When the escort turns up then its a different ball game.

 

[riacrato]

The Zero had 2 20mm cannon, but B17's did quite well defending themselves from them. What would the top speed of the Hurricane been at B17 bombing altitude? If it didn't have a large speed advantage over the bombers, it could have found itself struggling to overtake them while being hammered by defensive fire. Didn't the 50 outrange the 20mm?

Type 99 has much lower MV than Hispano Mk.II. So the latter is more powerful and has more range.

 

[pinsog]

What was the Hurricanes and B17's speed at 25 to 30 thousand feet? I think the one allied fighter that we should be glad the Germans didn't have would be the P47. Fast, high flying, very difficult to shoot down, even had good range, arm it with 4 20mm and a huge load of ammo, or 4 30mm and still a decent load of ammo. Dive through the formations, zoom climb, repeat. Scary to think about.

 

[riacrato]

P-47 has sub-par climb, so no, it is not a good interceptor imo.

 

[tomo pauk]

How about some numbers to back up that claim about P-47?

 

[fastmongrel]

Depends which model of P 47 your talking about and whether it had the Curtiss paddle blade prop. Early versions of the Jug were not very good at climbing. Jug ace Don Blakeslee said about his early P47 C referring to the P-47's vaunted ability to dive on its prey, "It ought to be able to dive. It certainly can't climb." Blakeslee's early-model P-47C had not been fitted with the new paddle-blade propeller.

Luftwaffe pilots learnt not to try and manouver with the early Jug models but to climb hard and got a nasty shock when the 13 foot diameter Curtiss prop came into service

 

[drgondog]

The pre 47D-10 also did not have WI although the -2 and -5 were retrofitted with WI along w/Paddle Prop.. still could not touch a 109 in any climb but a zoom climb (as an example). The 47C in all dash numbers were sluggish in climb.

 

[Glider]

At the end of the day the P47 only had the 0.50 and this would have struggled against the US 4 engined bombers. All nations that faced them upgunned their fighters to have cannons.

 

[pinsog]

Which model P47? Use the exact same timeline as the US P47 with the same upgrades. Can't climb? Germans had plenty of time to climb to altitude since they had radar to warn them well in advance. Once engaged, dive on bombers, make a pass, blow through, full power convert speed back into altitude in a zoom climb. Repeat. When the paddle prop comes along, the climbing problem is resolved, P47 becomes even more dangerous. P47 had longer range than 109 and 190, it wouldn't have been as critical to know the exact target the allies were going to hit as it was with the 109 and 190.

 

[pinsog]

We are assuming the Germans had developed the P47 so it would have had cannon. Yes the 50 would have struggled against 4 engines heavies

 

[Glider]

Interesting. I thought we were looking at how the Hurricane a well armed but obsolete fighter would manage against the B17 and B24.
Now we are looking at the germans developing the P47 which they didn't do and arming it with guns it never had against the B17 and B24 which were on the same side ie American.

 

[tomo pauk]

While I'll agree that P-47s (before water injection paddle blade prop were introduced) were not such good climbers, when compared with 109, P-51 Spit, that was not rendering them being inefficient interceptors.

Sorry for helping skewing the thread :\