HVARs in Air-to-Air Combat?

DarrenW · Dec 25, 2017

Is there any evidence to suggest that during WWII American pilots launched HVARs at enemy aircraft? I've read somewhere that certain pilots have indeed used them in this capacity before but I cannot remember the source of this information. I ran a cursory search of the forum but did not find much in regards to this topic.

I understand that the ballistics of this weapon didn't lend it well to aerial combat (it was an air-to-ground weapon after all), so it would probably be used as a last ditch effort, if at all.

Any insight into this would be greatly appreciated.

Darren

High Velocity Aircraft Rocket - Wikipedia

mexchiwa · Dec 26, 2017

Not WWII, but in Vietnam an A-4 driver used Zunis to bring down a MIG-17...

DarrenW · Dec 26, 2017

Thanks, that's basically what I'm looking for. I've heard about that encounter during the Vietnam War which makes me believe that something similar could have occurred during WWII, given the huge number of ground attack missions during the final year of the war. More fighters were carrying these types of weapons so one would think that an opportunity would arise here or there that warranted their use. Not that it was even close to a regular occurrence of course.....

mexchiwa · Dec 26, 2017

Sorry for another off-topic reply, but some Soviet and German fighters were armed with air-to air rockets, but I've never heard of Americans using HVARs as anti-aircraft weapons.

DarrenW · Dec 26, 2017

That's a very good point and I'm also ok if this thread morphs to include other types of unguided air launced rockets used by other nations during the war, as I know very little about those weapons as well....

MIflyer · Dec 28, 2017

I recall reading where a TBM pilot was on a night mission to attack the Japanese-held portion of Okinawa. They would take off from one of the airfields, head over to the enemy area under radar control, salvo their 5 inch HVAR rockets into a designated area and then come home to reload and do it all over again.

One night he got a radio message that there was a "Bandit" in the area and everyone was supposed to clear out of that part of the sky. The TBM pilot looked over and saw an airplane flying in the combat area, visible via its exhaust. He complained over the radio, "Hey, why is that guy over there when I have to clear out?" The response from control was "You idiot! That's the bandit!"

So he pulled up behind the bandit and salvoed his HVAR. Boom!

DarrenW · Dec 30, 2017

That's a great story! I can imagine if one got close enough before firing, within 50 yards or so, there's a pretty darn good possibility of a direct hit.

MIflyer · Dec 30, 2017

I think it was in the book "Druid's Circle" where I read that the USAAF asked the RAF for some help dealing with German fighters that would fly over our bombers and drop bombs onto the formation. Adolph Galland described a mission where he did that and when one of his bombs hit a B-17 it took out all three of them.

So the RAF developed a rocket that would be launched from the radio room of B-17's, fired at German aircraft flying overhead to break up their bombing tactics. They never used it in combat. I guess that our escort fighters put a stop to the Germans' air-to-air bombing.

But the Japanese used the same approach. A friend of mine's PB4Y-2 was attacked by George fighters that began by dropping phosphorous bombs, which exploded overhead and did no harm, followed by an intensive 30 min combat in which the two Privateers shot down two George fighters at the cost of some wounded crewmen.

DarrenW · Dec 31, 2017

MIflyer said:
I think it was in the book "Druid's Circle" where I read that the USAAF asked the RAF for some help dealing with German fighters that would fly over our bombers and drop bombs onto the formation. Adolph Galland described a mission where he did that and when one of his bombs hit a B-17 it took out all three of them.

So the RAF developed a rocket that would be launched from the radio room of B-17's, fired at German aircraft flying overhead to break up their bombing tactics. They never used it in combat. I guess that our escort fighters put a stop to the Germans' air-to-air bombing.

But the Japanese used the same approach. A friend of mine's PB4Y-2 was attacked by George fighters that began by dropping phosphorous bombs, which exploded overhead and did no harm, followed by an intensive 30 min combat in which the two Privateers shot down two George fighters at the cost of some wounded crewmen.

Was your friend piloting the plane?

MIflyer · Jan 4, 2018

My friend was a radio operator. His radio blew up right before his eyes. At one time he was the only unwounded man on the flight deck and was directed by the pilot to go get the nose turret back in operation. The top of the turret was blown off and the nose gunner was not responsive, but the gunner began to fire back at the enemy before my friend had to leave the flight deck. Only one man turned out to be seriously injured, the radar operator that sat on the other side of the flight deck, a 20MM shell hit the back of his armored seat and exploded between the seat and his back, an effect rather like that of a shotgun blast. Everyone else was just stunned. The forward upper gunner was dumped out of his seat when a round hit the seat release; one round jammed in the turret gears. The pilots were stunned when the throttle for one engine was shot away.

My friend, Bob Berry, is 94 now and survived a burst appendix this past summer. I need to go see him again.

DarrenW · Jan 6, 2018

That must have been a very frightening experience for him. I'm glad that he survived the ordeal and is still with us. By the way those PB4Y-2s look a little odd with that single vertical stab and rudder. I wonder why the change from the dual set-up found on the B-24?

Shortround6 · Jan 6, 2018

Taller hangers

MIflyer · Jan 6, 2018

Interesting thing that Bob told me was that they actually removed some of the armor plate in their airplane. The Japanese had learned to make head-on attacks and rounds entering through the windshield tended to rattle around and do more damage than if you just let them go on through, and that is just what happened on their flight - damage done by the round hitting the armored seat back. The wounded radar operator was sent up to an aide station after they got back to their base on Okinawa. After a bit he came back without getting treatment, saying there were plenty of front line troops in worse shape then he was. They medevaced him to Iwo Jima the next day.

That tail design must have been better. They were going to switch to the single tail design on the B-24, but production ended before that could occur. The PB4Y-2 tail looks a lot like the B-32 tail.

I read that before Iwo was invaded a PB4Y2 was attacked and shot down by a dozen or so Zeros flying out of Iwo. The unit sent out three PB4Y-2's and when the Zeros came out they handled them the same way those two Privateers later handled those George fighters - and shot down one Zero after another as they made head on passes. They got about 5 Zeros that day - and were never bothered again when flying in that area.

DarrenW · Jan 14, 2018

MIflyer said:
Interesting thing that Bob told me was that they actually removed some of the armor plate in their airplane. The Japanese had learned to make head-on attacks and rounds entering through the windshield tended to rattle around and do more damage than if you just let them go on through, and that is just what happened on their flight - damage done by the round hitting the armored seat back. The wounded radar operator was sent up to an aide station after they got back to their base on Okinawa. After a bit he came back without getting treatment, saying there were plenty of front like troops in worse shape then he was. They medevaced him to Iwo Jima the next day.

That tail design must have been better. They were going to switch to the single tail design on the B-24, but production ended before that could occur. The PB4Y-2 tail looks a lot like the B-32 tail.

I read that before Iwo was invaded a PB4Y2 was attacked and shot down by a dozen or so Zeros flying out of Iwo. The unit sent out three PB4Y-2's and when the Zeros came out they handled them the same way those two Privateers later handled those George fighters - and shot down one Zero after another as they made head on passes. They got about 5 Zeros that day - and were never bothered again when flying in that area.

Very interesting stuff. You hear a lot about the fighter vs fighter combat but extremely little is ever discussed about episodes such as the one you just described. Thanks for sharing....

HVARs in Air-to-Air Combat?

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