Hypothetical: Gregory Boyington vs Erich Hartmann

[Coors9]

LOL

 

[renrich]

Personally I go for Joe Foss. He was a good gunner and got 26 credits with an airplane that did not perform as well as the Zekes he sometimes faced.

 

[Lighthunmust]

Personally I go for Joe Foss. He was a good gunner and got 26 credits with an airplane that did not perform as well as the Zekes he sometimes faced.

Roger that.

 

[P-40K-5]

speaking of rough maneuvering, anybody know the pilot of this particular Bf109
who taught four p-51 pilots a thing or 10 about combat maneuvering???


View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8EDP5JmtSrM

 

[Timppa]

I can only recommend Bruce Gambles' book on Boyington.
It is one of the most honest books of a fighter ace i have seen.

Toliver/Constable book on Hartmann is total crap. Does a disservice to the great German ace.

 

[Lighthunmust]

I can only recommend Bruce Gambles' book on Boyington.
It is one of the most honest books of a fighter ace i have seen.

Toliver/Constable book on Hartmann is total crap. Does a disservice to the great German ace.

Since you have read the Gamble book, please share your opinion of Boyington as a leader, tactician, and individual fighter pilot. What do you recommend as a better source on Hartmann?

 

[renrich]

That German pilot in the video might have been almost in the same league with Saburo Sakai, assuming the video and story is accurate, which is assuming a lot. The book I quoted from was "Horrido" by Tolliver and Constable. It is not solely about Hartmann but about many LW aces. They said nothing in the book which was uncomplimentary about Hartmann or for that matter, I can remember nothing uncomplimentary about any of the LW aces. I am sure the book, because it was written so long ago. lacks a lot in terms of accuracy and objectivity. The quotes from Hartmann about his tactics are also in "Fighter Combat, Tactics and Maneuvering" by Robert Shaw.

 

[P-40K-5]

eye witness accounts from two of the four P-51 veterens who were there. I would call that accurate.
now this is NOT meant for you, but its funny how some P-51 fanatics always doubt stories about the
Bf109 abilities and her pilots... even when it comes straight from the P-51 pilots mouth!

 

[Lighthunmust]

My sources on Hartmann are:

"The Blonde Knight of Germany" by Toliver and Constable

"Luftwaffe Fighter Aces" by Mike Spike

I have seen "Horrido" but never read it.

Timppa and anyone else, what do your recommend as better sources?

One thing to consider about the exploits of pilots surrounded by the enemy is it is a counterintuitive situation. Intuitively people think groups defeat individuals. However, if the individual surrounded is highly skilled and his opponents only of average skill several things are likely to happen. First is if a well coordinated attack is not made it can quickly become a messy situation of trying to stay out of each others way. Second is when the skilled individual seizes the initiative by surprising the hell out of the over-confident group when he does not passively accept defeat and bloodies the nose of the most aggressive member of the group. Third is the individual has more targets to shoot at than the group, and it will be difficult for group members to fire except in turn for fear of collision and friendly fire exposure.

 

[Lighthunmust]

eye witness accounts from two of the four P-51 veterens who were there. I would call that accurate.
now this is NOT meant for you, but its funny how some P-51 fanatics always doubt stories about the
Bf109 abilities and her pilots... even when it comes straight from the P-51 pilots mouth!

I have often observed sufferers of P-51itis failing to appreciate reality about not just opponent aircraft but those of allies. I think Mustang fans are only exceeded by Spitfire fans in susceptibility to being blinded by love, with ME-109 lovers being a by a nose close third.

 

[renrich]

P40K, I understand what you are saying and I really think that might be true about everyone who has a favorite WW2 plane. I include myself as I was bitten by the Corsair Bug back during WW2 when my parents gave me a book which had a color picture of the XF4U in it. Later in the fifties, I worked at Temco Aircraft next to the Vought plant and used to walk out and look longingly at a few F4Us they had around. Alas, I was color blind and could not fly in the service so had to be a ground pounder.

The video you posted and the story do illustrate what I was saying earlier. A skilled pilot with awareness, altitude and speed can almost always keep from getting hit, although against numerous attackers it is quite a chore. It helps if the attackers are rookies. Saburo Sakai eluded a bunch of Hellcats that kept getting in each other's way until he was exhausted and could almost not control stick and rudder. He mentioned that he thought the Navy guys were probably inexperienced and forgot their lessons.

 

[P-40K-5]

Yes, there seems to be a lore about the P-51 Mustang, and Spitfire. Saburo Sakai was the japanese ace that was shot through the head
and managed to fly 400 miles back to his base, correct? anyways, in my honest opinion, superior numbers beat the Luftwaffe, not nessesarly
great planes or pilots. and not to mention the B-17 Lancasters destorying German Steel Factories fuel depots. when one is outnumber like the Luftwaffe was in 1944, no amount of experiance or tallent will save you. only luck will.

 

[Coors9]

Other than the liquid cooled ground fire stuff, from "44" on there was no better all around fighter in the world. Mass numbers helped no doubt. That bird proved itself time and time again. I love the Bucher Bird and the Milk Jug. Willie made one dangerous little birdcage. Corsair, probably the reason I fell in love with WW2 fighters in the beginning. I'd almost say perfection. If it wasn't for her younger brother, she'd have been dogfighting over the 49th. This is just one guy's opinion .

 

[Njaco]

From the account, the Bf 109 pilot would have been from JG 11 who were tasked to attack airfield Y-29 that morning. Amazing.

 

[P-40K-5]

From the account, the Bf 109 pilot would have been from JG 11 who were tasked to attack airfield Y-29 that morning. Amazing.

after looking through my book, BODENPLATTE: The Luftwaffe's Last Hope, I'll bet my last dollar that the pilot in question is:

Ofw. Franz Meindl, who flew Bf 109G-14 WNr.784765 'blaue 11', from 8./JG 11.

I highly recomend this book. He did amazing research into the actual victories/losses of the German during Operation Bodenplatte.
Suffice to say, it will open some eyes.

cheers.

 

[tyrodtom]

I read that book last year, it shows the sadness of war with some of the remains still being discovered, and some that will probably never be found.

Very well researched, one of the best i've read.

 

[Timppa]

My sources on Hartmann are:

"The Blonde Knight of Germany" by Toliver and Constable

"Luftwaffe Fighter Aces" by Mike Spike

I have seen "Horrido" but never read it.

Timppa and anyone else, what do your recommend as better sources?

The problem is that there is no better source, as of now. Manfred Jäger/Ursula Hartmann's book may be a good read but I have not seen it.
Toliver/Constable -book is pure hero worship. For example the the 5 P-51 victories in summer 1944 is fiction, even by German records.

 

[P-40K-5]

I read that book last year, it shows the sadness of war with some of the remains still being discovered, and some that will probably never be found.

Very well researched, one of the best i've read.

yes, very sad. heres a few paragraphs from the book. This is something I would expect the Russians or French to do, but not Americans.

"By the time I got to the plane, the pilot had been shot and his flight-suit taken. He was lying in a pool of blood in his longhandles with one foot on the wing. He had coal black hair, about 20 years old or less, and looked just like a cousin of mine.A friend of mine,Smith,56 shot the pilot as he got out of his plane, a Me 109.A Grave Registration Unit picked up the body and the next day officers of Corps Headquarters came to our unit to investigate. They didn't like it because a German had been brought in dead in his underwear."

"The unfortunate pilot was Uffz. Herbert Maxis of 13.1JG 53. Uffz. Maxis belly-landed his
'White 13' just east of Ittersdorf along the road from Felsberg to Boulay. As he climbed out of the
ship, Ufu. Maxis raised his hands and tried to surrender, but was immediately shot by a member
of 'A' battery of the 739th FA Bn."

"A bullet had wounded Pfc. Camile J. LeForte of'A' Battery and this was apparently sufficient reason to shoot Maxis on the spot"

"A court-martial was threatened for the gunner, but it seems the whole affair was covered up."

"In official reports it was reported that Ufu. Maxis made a move, which had been interpreted as hostile by the Field Artillery personnel."

"Today his grave remains unfound and Uffz. Herbert Maxis is still listed as MIA."

 

[Lighthunmust]

This is something I would expect the Russians or French to do, but not Americans.[/I]

With respect, unless you are making an emotionally impulsive comment, you obviously have much to learn about Americans and war in general. All sides committed individual and collective acts such as you described. It is the frequency, magnitude, and self-imposed consequences of such acts that separates the "civilized" armies from the "barbaric" armies. I suspect if you look you will find events such as you described were far less common in the U.S. military than those of other countries. I think you should consider that by the time of the incident you describe; everyone from private to general was fed up with German resistance in a lost war that resulted in needless deaths. Unless you are there and see your best friend seriously wounded and your friends dead from a pointless attack, I would not be too harsh a judge of the man who killed unfortunate Herbert Maxis. What happened was wrong but understandable. Don't forget many of those Americans had grandparents and parents born in England, Germany,Italy, Russia, etc.

 

[P-40K-5]

It wasn't a pointless attack, just a surprising one.


Once Maxis's hands were raised to surrender, the 56 year old Smith shot Maxis in the head anyways, what would you call it?
I know other countries did the same, but thats not the discussion here.