Hypothetical: Gregory Boyington vs Erich Hartmann

[drgondog]

I know John - left them out of the initial comparison because they did fight in 'an equal opportunity fighter' - ditto Bong, McCambell, McGuire, Gabreski, Preddy, etc, etc. Who knows where Beckham, Beeson, Duncan, Goodson, etc would have ended up had they not been downed by flak? Especially Beckham who went down before the big fights occurred.

 

[P-40K-5]

Molders is amongst the greatest of aces.

Rank First Name Last Name Spitfires picked like grapes

Obst. Josef "Pips" Priller-------------------68

Hptm. Josef "Sepp" Wurmheller----------56+

Maj. Hans "Assi" Hahn-----------------------53

Obstlt. Egon Mayer----------------------------51

Genlt. Adolf "Dolfo" Galland-----------------50

 

[Readie]

'Any flyer that could have Molders is amongst the greatest of aces'
This is my post, if you read it you'll see that Malan is the greatest of aces as he downed Molders.

Galland and Tuck becane firm friends after the war, perhaps this is the best outcome rather an a list of victories.
Cheers
John

 

[Lighthunmust]

Rank First Name Last Name Spitfires picked like grapes

Obst. Josef "Pips" Priller-------------------68

Hptm. Josef "Sepp" Wurmheller----------56+

Maj. Hans "Assi" Hahn-----------------------53

Obstlt. Egon Mayer----------------------------51

Genlt. Adolf "Dolfo" Galland-----------------50

Posting stats with the phrase "picked like grapes" is I am sure something the very pilots you list would find disrespectful to their honorable defeated adversaries. When are you going to stop posting passive aggressive comments in an attempt to defend your obvious opinion of the superiority of German pilots, aircraft, and Air Force? Continuing this behavior only decreases the credibility of your less incendiary, accurate comments. You don't see anyone obviously a USAAF or RAF fan using such language to describe allied victories over aircraft piloted by German and Japanese men. Many aircraft piloted by German men were destroyed very easily by opponents. Nobody here is degrading the memory of those men with comparisons to picking fruit. People are still alive that knew the pilots of the "grapes" you refer to and will not appreciate your analogy. Such comments from young and immature fighter pilots may have been common during the war but are not appropriate here. They are only examples of incivility.

 

[P-40K-5]

the phrase was coined by the Luftwaffe pilots themselves.. but I'm sure you knew that but just forgot.

 

[Lighthunmust]

the phrase was coined by the Luftwaffe pilots themselves.. but I'm sure you knew that but just forgot.

I did not know or had forgotten the phrase was coined by Luftwaffe pilots. Perhaps if you had placed the phrase in that context you would not have appeared to be so provocative? You are not a Luftwaffe pilot in 1939-45, perhaps you should not use their derogatory terminology without attribution. Whether it is deliberate or inadvertent your phasing often has an uncivil tone. I am only being honest with you and not baiting you. You do have many credible postings I find interesting but you really need to craft your message more carefully with regard to your audience.

 

[P-40K-5]

perhaps its becouse I choose to embrace the past and move on, rather then ignore it and stagnate.
no, I am not a Luftwaffe Pilot from 1939-1945. But I had relatives on my mothers side that were as
I recently found out. shall I ignore there sevice to their country?

 

[Lighthunmust]

perhaps its becouse I choose to embrace the past and move on, rather then ignore it and stagnate.
no, I am not a Luftwaffe Pilot from 1939-1945. But I had relatives on my mothers side that were as
I recently found out. shall I ignore there sevice to their country?

No one is asking that you ignore or forget the brave and honorable individual actions of your ancestors. You rightfully should be proud of the brave and honorable individual actions of your ancestors even if they occurred in support of a bad cause. You will receive much more respect and understanding of the reasons for your pride if you express it in a more civil and reasoned manner that does not dismiss the accomplishments of others to justify your pride. My wife's uncle was Hitler Youth and fought as a child soldier. He does not make apologies, excuses for failure, or indirect derogatory comments about his former adversaries to express his pride in acting honorably in defense of his Fatherland. Show pride for your ancestors and heritage but do it for the right reasons and in the right ways.

 

[P-40K-5]

I don't subscibe to political correctness. but I'll curb my attitude. maybe READIE should take a page from your book too.

 

[Coors9]

How about forgive and forget you two. I still think Don Gentile would kick their rudders , even with only four 50's that tended to jam.

 

[P-40K-5]

what about Saburo Sakai vs Hans-Joachim Marseille using there favorite a/c? I think that would be an EPIC dogfight...

 

[vikingBerserker]

Hmm, that would actually be pretty cool.

 

[Coors9]

Both in zero's with same hours would be something.

 

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

perhaps its becouse I choose to embrace the past and move on, rather then ignore it and stagnate.
no, I am not a Luftwaffe Pilot from 1939-1945. But I had relatives on my mothers side that were as
I recently found out. shall I ignore there sevice to their country?

No but you don't have to disrespect or ignore the others as well...

I too have relatives that served in WW2. My Grandfather on my mothers side was a Major in the German Wehrmacht and served on the Eastern Front including Stalingrad. My wifes Grandfather on her fathers side was in the Wehrmacht on the Eastern Front. My grandfather who was in the US Army and landed on Omaha Beach. I respect both of thier military service and the honor they had in the service of their respective countries.

Whether you mean to or not, you are sometimes very disrespective and even sometimes on the verge of revisionism...

My suggestion to you would be this:

Think before you speak.

I don't subscibe to political correctness. but I'll curb my attitude. maybe READIE should take a page from your book too.

Political correctness has nothing to do with it.

 

[P-40K-5]

had to look up revisionism. "Though the word "revisionism' is sometimes used in a negative way, constant revision of history is part of the normal scholarly process of writing history."
so you also have European roots, well you should know then that its very difficult to " dance around the bush" so to speak. being blunt is in the blood.

I'll try to curb my attitude. However I will not appologise for what I wrote.

 

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

had to look up revisionism. "Though the word "revisionism' is sometimes used in a negative way, constant revision of history is part of the normal scholarly process of writing history."
so you also have European roots, well you should know then that its very difficult to " dance around the bush" so to speak. being blunt is in the blood.

I'll try to curb my attitude. However I will not appologise for what I wrote.

A persons blood does not determine if they have to be polite or act like an adult.

 

[Kryten]

Reading Spitfires over Malta at present which tries to corroberate claims with losses on each day suggests taking "pilots kill scores" with a very large pinch of salt anyway, the number of spitfires claimed destroyed relative to actuall losses, and vice versa, suggests most of these pilots claims were at aircraft they barely damaged, missed completely or which was hit by several aircraft and claimed by all of them, I'm beginning to think the only way to appreciate the actual peformance of an aircraft in combat is to study the outcome of a particular campaign, take into consideration the many variables such as maintenance, living conditions, logistic supply and even physical health of the people involved, then you can appreciate the outcome and the performance of the many aircraft involved and intergrated into the victory/defeat in the campaign.

 

[P-40K-5]

all claims are always on the high side. thats a givin. the best way is to physically compare loss records, dates, with claims by the individual.
the book BODENPLATTE: The Luftwaffe's Last Hope is an excellent example of meticulas research.

 

[Kryten]

I personally think way to much emphasis is placed on personal scores, its the performance of the whole arm that dictates the victors and in that I also include the ground staff!

 

[Readie]

I personally think way to much emphasis is placed on personal scores, its the performance of the whole arm that dictates the victors and in that I also include the ground staff!

I agree, the Ace culture glamorised the fighter pilots with the most ( high number) of kills. It made good press for all countries in WW2.
Stanford Tuck was surprised to learn that his total went up one in circa 1965 when the remains of a LW bomber he claimed were found.
However, all this Ace stuff would not be possible without the ground crew etc etc.
I admire the fledging pilot with scarcely enough training who was hurled into fray. That must have been frightening.....
Cheers
John