Ideal Luftwaffe starting 1/1/1936

Discussion in 'Aviation' started by wiking85, Mar 5, 2014.

  1. wiking85

    wiking85 Well-Known Member

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    Your challenge is to build the ideal Luftwaffe starting the first of January 1936; you have total control over engine and airframe development, production, training, organization and officer placement/promotion. If you are really hardcore you can even set building priorities in terms of factories for both engines and airframes.
     
  2. Gixxerman

    Gixxerman Member

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    I think one of the prime things necessary is to sort out a proper system of oversight control.
    Allowing mini-fiefdoms empires led to the huge waste of effort resources (when it was obvious shortages were going to be likely) in various silly pet projects as well as the countless examples of wasteful duplication failure to maximise on the technical advances that were achieved.
    Big personalities can sometimes drive an organisation in a positive direction but quite clearly in the case of the LW it was a massive problem, ultimately.
    But in a state like the nazi one it was not only tolerated but encouraged.
     
  3. Shortround6

    Shortround6 Well-Known Member

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    Trouble is you don't know why certain engine projects were delayed or what some of the cures were. It is easy to say "just give project XX more money and resources" and the problems ( whatever they were) would be solved when I need them to be solved for my scenario/plan.
    Metallurgy and knowledge of vibration problems and metal fatigue were making lots of progress at the time as were other areas.

    I have no idea why some of the Luftwaffe gun programs took as long as they did, MG 151 was supposed have been combat tested in Spain in 1938, some use may have been made of it as a fixed gun in bombers or seaplanes in 1940 but it was not used as a motor cannon until 1941. Without the belt feed MG 151 some types of aircraft (specifically single seat long range escort fighters) are not practical or at least severally limited.
     
  4. davebender

    davebender Well-Known Member

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    DB601 and Jumo211 engines are production ready or close to it. They will be your 1st Generation engines. Development and production will be fully funded. Production rate will be matched to give aircraft designers their preferred engine type.

    Development of larger DB603 and Jumo213 will begin immediately. They will be 2nd Generation engines. Development and production will be fully funded. Production rate will be matched to give aircraft designers their preferred engine type.

    Paired variants of V12 engines will be developed as happened historically. They are an option for bombers and transport aircraft.

    Development and production of BMW132 and Bramo323 radial engines will be fully funded. Production rate will be matched to give aircraft designers their preferred engine type.

    No V24 engine. No large radial engine. Late 1930s Germany cannot afford these uncertain programs when war is staring them in the face.

    Jet engine development at historical rate. However we may opt to mass produce Jumo004A engine starting 1943.

    Single engine fighter aircraft.
    Me-109 powered by DB601 engine. Superseded by Fw-190 powered by DB603 engine.

    Long range fighter / recon aircraft.
    Fw-187 powered by DB601 engines. Improved DB601 / DB605 engines will allow this aircraft to remain in production until at least 1945.

    Single engine dive bomber / CAS aircraft.
    Ju-87 powered by Jumo211 engine. Cannon armed variant will be produced from beginning in addition to dive bomber version.

    Heavy dive bomber.
    Ju-88. Initially powered by Jumo211. Improved version powered by Jumo213.
    .....Torpedo bomber variant.
    .....Night fighter variant.

    Long range level bomber.
    He-111 initially as that's all you have. Replace with DB606 powered Do-317 during 1941.
    .....Dornier needs a major airframe contract. That's the deciding factor for production of Do-317 rather then Ju-288.

    Medium Transport aircraft. This aircraft accomplishes most transport missions.
    Ju-52 initially. Superseded by Jumo211 powered Ju-252.

    Strategic transport aircraft. Maintain at least one geschwader for missions that require huge range / payload.
    Ju-290 powered by Jumo213 engines.
    .....Having 100 or more such aircraft would be very handy in the event of naval blockade. Can also support rapid deployment of military units.
     
  5. GregP

    GregP Well-Known Member

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    No real need to change anything in 1936. The real need is to get rid of Herman Goering. Anyone competent could have done better and might have succeeded in many areas where the RLM and Luftwaffe were deficient by virtue of good leadership.

    In Adolph Hitler and Herman Goering ... two men less suited to planning a world beating aerial armada can hardly be imagined.

    ANYTHING would have been better, maybe even choosing at random from within the Luftwaffe.
     
  6. tomo pauk

    tomo pauk Creator of Interesting Threads

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    DB-601 and Jumo 211 are given. The 211 needs a modification for prop gun. Once the development of basis engines is done, next series of research is for greater RPM, rating the engines for higher octane fuel, and development of two stage variants. Water/alchocol injection, intercooling. BMW to develope a 14 cylinder radial, with most if not all modifications as for the V-12s.
    Work on air cooled turbines. Will come in handy for jet engines (less need for rare materials) and turbo (in case it proves better than a two stage supercharging). Start developing jet engines. Those don't need hi-oct fuel, props, reduction gears, additional superchargers, intercoolers, MW-50, there is no adwerse torque on take off, one can be fast even with one engine. Shortcoming is fuel economy, hence the need for better piston engines.
     
  7. tomo pauk

    tomo pauk Creator of Interesting Threads

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    Diesel engines could also use some development, the most likely users being long range marine patrol aircraft and transports.
    Armament: belt fed stuff is mandatory for calibers smaller than 37mm. Use 6-8 LMGs in single engined fighters, alternatively mix those with MG FF, until you have a proper belt-fed 20mm cannon. A belt-fed MG-FF might provide the Bf-109 with 3 cannons pretty early. For a bigger air-to-air cannon, neck up the Flak 20mm cartrige, so the shell of circa 200-250 g can be fired at 700-750 m/s and at 600+ rpm in a belt-fed gun. For air-to-ground work, start with 37mm, later move to 50 mm.
     
  8. Shortround6

    Shortround6 Well-Known Member

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    And here we go :)

    "DB601 and Jumo211 engines are production ready or close to it."

    While the DB 601 was running in Jan of 1936 first contract was not placed until Feb 1937 and first series (not prototype) engine delivered Nov 1937.

    Wiki is a bit confusing on the Jumo 211.
    " first prototyped at Jumo's Dessau plant in 1935 and started testing in April 1936" is a little confusing?
    " Limited production of the 1,000 PS Jumo 211A started in April 1937 at Dessau, with just over 1,000 completed before full production was started at Magdeburg in July" 1000 engines in 3-4 months was higher production than any other aircraft engine in the world at the time. and does not line up with
    "The first prototype aircraft powered by the 211A appeared in late 1937" First prototype aircraft flies with a Jumo 211 in late 1937 yet by this time they well over 1000 completed engines?

    No matter how you look at, in reality, the DB 601 and Jumo 211 are NOT ready for production or close to it in Jan of 1936, they are a year and half or more away.

    AS for the DB 603 and Jumo 213; How about seeing if DB really has the 601 sorted out before sending them onto another engine. And try getting the Jumo 211 to run at, say 2600rpm ( initial ones ran at 2200rpm) before trying for 3200rpm. Jumo 213 was NOT larger than the 211. It "just" ran at higher rpm.

    "Development and production of BMW132 and Bramo323 radial engines will be fully funded. Production rate will be matched to give aircraft designers their preferred engine type."

    Well, this seems like another allied victory. Build both a 26.8 liter 9 cylinder radial and a 27.7 liter 9 cylinder radial (3.3% difference) and let the airframe makers "pick"?
     
  9. rinkol

    rinkol Member

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    One thing that is a bit of a mystery is the Bramo 329 which was cancelled in favor of the BMW 14 cylinder engine developments with Bamo being folded into BMW. The BMW 801 seemed to take a lot of work to reach a serviceable form. Would the 329 have been a better bet? Reportedly it was achieving 2000 hp on the test stand when it was cancelled.
     
  10. tomo pauk

    tomo pauk Creator of Interesting Threads

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    One wonders just how good or bad the BMW-139 was?
     
  11. wiking85

    wiking85 Well-Known Member

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    I doubt it, they were taking the same path using different engines as a starting point:
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bramo
    The BMW 801 was pretty much just the two projects merged into one after the 139 had its issues; they took the best of both and made the 801.

    http://www.ww2aircraft.net/forum/engines/bmw-139-information-13261.html

    Not bad, but superseded by the merging of the 329 and 139 projects. The 801 was the result of the best of both.
     
  12. wiking85

    wiking85 Well-Known Member

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    That's kind of hard to say, Dessau was the original producer of all new types of Jumo engines; they weren't a mass production facility, rather they custom built the new engines in small batches; so the limited production of the Jumo 211A in April 1937 was the beginning of production, it just took time to get the mass production facilities tooled up the new engine. So in effect it was already in mass production in April 1937, it just took time to get the mass production facilities ready to make it while the custom small batch jobs were being done at Dessau to get them into service until the assembly line type facilities took over the Dessau moved on to new developments.

    As to the DB601, it was ready in early 1937, but it had to wait for the contract to be signed before it could start tooling; there wasn't a Dessau like facility for DB to start 601 production early until the mass production facilities were tooled. IMHO the problem was probably that the LW wanted to certify that the DB 601 was ready before contracting its mass production, which resulted in delay, especially as at this point Udet was taking over the Technical Branch and was cleaning house personnel-wise, so that resulted in a bigger delay than usual.
     
  13. davebender

    davebender Well-Known Member

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    Did BMW139 have a running prototype as of January 1936? If not how can we justify starting the program from scratch when 1936 BMW132 engine requires further development and we are about to start new programs for DB603 and Jumo213 engines?


    Carbureted DB600 engine.
    Historically nobody wanted this engine except RLM. They forced Daimler-Benz to produce it rather then beginning production with fuel injected DB601. Retooling from DB600 to DB601 cost Daimler-Benz money and delayed engine production. That should not be allowed to happen. DB601 should be mass produced at Genshagen beginning January 1937 as Daimler-Benz wanted.
     
  14. wiking85

    wiking85 Well-Known Member

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    #14 wiking85, Mar 6, 2014
    Last edited: Mar 6, 2014
    What further development? It was pretty close to topped out by 1936 and the only real major gains were to be made by moving up the displacement ladder, which really only made sense by melding two versions of the engine together (or 7 cylinder versions of it).
    I agree that in 1936 it made sense to fund the DB603 and not stop. However the Jumo 213 wasn't even a glimmer in the eye of an engineer until 1938 or 39. No one knew that it was possible until the study about a high pressure cooling system was completed in 1939. At that point funding it was very much a good idea, but until then its kind of hard to tell. Arguably it took until the Jumo 211F proved the cooling system worked for the Jumo 213 project to really get off the ground.

    Agreed, but the problem was the RLM was thinking politically; they needed an engine in 1936 in case things got unpleasant as a result of Hitler's foreign policy. Also it was a make work project designed to bolster employment too, plus it gave DB experience with producing a modern V12 engine, which was also the rationale behind producing the early marks of the Bf110 despite it being virtually useless until 1939 when it got the DB601.

    Edit:
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Daimler-Benz_DB_600_series
    it seems your TL is a bit off; the 601 entered its first powered flight testing in June 1936; it wouldn't have been ready that much sooner than it was ordered in February 1937. IMHO it seems like it perhaps lost about 4-5 months at most in terms of production, while netting Daimler with no experience producing the DB600 series. So it actually made sense to get the earlier 600 in production and modify existing lines to add in the fuel injector than wait until 1937 and begin not only tooling but any experience with the type at all, which would reduce early production of the 600 series.
     
  15. tomo pauk

    tomo pauk Creator of Interesting Threads

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    Why flog out the 9 cylinder, if the current state of art allows design of 14 cyl radial? At any rate, it will have 50% more power, give or take. Development of 9 cylinder can be continued by Bramo's engineers, BMW's can do the 14 cylinder. Going with BMW 139 will possibly allow for service use maybe a year earlier than 801?

    BTW, we are NOT about to start the Jumo 213 and DB 603; see post #6.
     
  16. Shortround6

    Shortround6 Well-Known Member

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    Since the major differences between the 600 and the 601 were in the induction system how much of loss in tooling was there? Need new lathes or fixtures for the crankshafts? Need new machinery for making pistons or con rods? new casting cores for crankcase or cylinder blocks?
    2281 DB 600s were built.

    I would also like to know where this fully developed/ ready to go fuel injection system was hiding.

    Junkers went through a number of versions of the Jumo 210 before the "G" version got fuel injection and started appearing in production planes in 1938. Test versions would obviously be available earlier but the idea that DB had a fully developed/ready to go fuel injection system in 1936 and was forced not to use it by the RLM is going to take a LOT of proof. As will the complementary idea that the supercharger drive and supercharger design used on the DB 601 was already designed and sitting on a shelf while DB was forced to use an older design supercharger and single speed drive on the DB 600.
     
  17. Shortround6

    Shortround6 Well-Known Member

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  18. wiking85

    wiking85 Well-Known Member

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    I don't think he's saying that it was purposely held back, but rather that waiting would have made its introduction quicker; I disagree with that view and agree that he needs to demonstrate proof that that was possible, while also considering the experience that would be lost without producing any DB600s.
     
  19. davebender

    davebender Well-Known Member

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    1936 Germany has aircraft powered by BMW132 engine and that won't change for at least five years. You've got to maintain full support for the engine program. So why not make improvements such as adding fuel injection system currently being employed on BMW VI engine?
     
  20. tomo pauk

    tomo pauk Creator of Interesting Threads

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    Giving a product support, and/or limited development is one thing. Allocating the resources of both Bramo and BMW, plus Governmental funds, to an engine that is already 'behind he curve', while passing on development of a 50% more powerful one is a waste of those resources. Sort of Bristol neglecting Hercules because of Pegasus, or Wright neglecting R-2600 because of R-1820.
     
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