Identify greys from enclosed pic/color chart

[P-40K-5]

Hello,

I was wondering for those who colorize photos or anybody really, if one can possibly match the RLM colors on the right to the photo on the left. anyhelp greatly appreciated! thanks.

 

[Wayne Little]

Mmmm....tall tail wheel.....G-14 maybe?...winter setting, picture is not the best quality to make a determination either....yellow tail band visible, very difficult to tell if it is 74/75 83/75 or possibly something else...have to think about it some more...

 

[P-40K-5]

Hey thanks for responding Wayne! the 109 in question is actually a Bf109G-6/YAM built at the Gyor, Hungary plant.

Tall guy on the right is General Gunther Rall. This was in the winter of 1944/1945.

 

[stona]

I'd say the kind of colour matching you are attempting is nigh on impossible as you are interpreting various grey tones. As Wayne said it is notoriously difficult to distinguish between 74/75 a 83/75 or even 81/82 or 82/83 in camouflage schemes. Throw in a variety of mottling possibilities,oversprays etc and you've got a serious problem! You'd be better establishing how aircraft at that facility at that time,or in that production block,were finished.
I've seen some truly horrible colourisations as well as some well researched and apparently accurate ones!
Cheers
Steve

 

[P-40K-5]

yup, theres some bad colour profiles out there. thats for sure. at this time during the war Gyor was under Mtt-Reg control, and would follow
their protocols. problem being,in late 1944, did Mtt-Reg use Bf109G-14 colours on the G-6's as well.

 

[stona]

I'm stuck on site today,home tomorrow,and I honestly can't remember. If noone else replies I'll check and see what I can find tomorrow.
Cheers
Steve

 

[stona]

did Mtt-Reg use Bf109G-14 colours on the G-6's as well.

I honestly can't remember and can't check at the moment as I'm out on site, a lovely way to spend my Sunday! If noone else responds I'll see what I can find tomorrow.
Cheers
Steve

 

[P-40K-5]

thanks. I know RLM had their rules, and the major players ie: Erla-Lip, WNF, Mtt-Reg interpited those rules in their own way.
I'm pretty sure all colours were standardized. then theres the staffels in each group who had there own ideas. some in JG77 for
example being big on using Italian colours. but thats a whole other ball game. the pic above is factory fresh delivery, so it would
have the factory colours camo scheme on her for late 1944.

 

[drgondog]

Hey thanks for responding Wayne! the 109 in question is actually a Bf109G-6/YAM built at the Gyor, Hungary plant.

View attachment 172687

Tall guy on the right is General Gunther Rall. This was in the winter of 1944/1945.

The tall guy with the ski jump nose is not Rall. Rall about 5-7" maybe 5-8" same heighth as my father, Adolph Galland and maybe an inch taller than Krupinski and Hitler. Attached is a photo I took at the American Fighter Aces Reunion in ~ 1985

 

[drgondog]

Hey thanks for responding Wayne! the 109 in question is actually a Bf109G-6/YAM built at the Gyor, Hungary plant.

View attachment 172687

Tall guy on the right is General Gunther Rall. This was in the winter of 1944/1945.

The tall guy with the ski jump nose is not Rall. Rall about 5-7" maybe 5-8" same heighth as my father, Adolph Galland and maybe an inch taller than Krupinski and Hitler. Attached is a photo I took at the American Fighter Aces Reunion in ~ 1985

 

[P-40K-5]

Ahhh Adolf Galland, still has that 'movie star' look!

 

[phas3e]

If its a regensburg aircraft its painted as their later G14s (the very large sprayed spots are a feature) which were still 74/75/76, theres good colour examples in 'Gotterdammerung' page 38 and 39.

 

[stona]

Are you sure of your identification? Do you have a werknummer? The tall tail wheel was only factory fitted to late production G-6s from production block 167000 (Prien/Rodeicke) and that is a Regensburg built block. This was fitted to the smaller tail as in your picture. The aircraft also has the Erla haube,DF loop and Galland panzer. The antenna mast also looks to be fitted to the canopy. All this also means that this could be,as Wayne suggested, an early G-14. The tall wheel/short tail was present on some early Regensburg machines. Unless you've got some good evidence that this is a Gyor built machine I'd go with the Regensburg scheme,probably the same thing anyway.
My money is on 74/75/76.
There's a nice comparison evident in your second picture between the camouflage on your subject in the foreground and the Erla style blotches on the one in the background.
I'm with "drgondog" on the tall chap's identity,I don't think that is Rall.
Cheers
Steve

 

[Wayne Little]

Mmm, based on Regensberg, then 74/75/76 is likely....

 

[P-40K-5]

Are you sure of your identification? Do you have a werknummer?
Cheers
Steve

95182, its on the fin. Gyor built G-4,6's (until G-14's are found). heres the known Gyor WNr's.:

Bf109G-4 - WNr.16651 to WNr.16653
Bf109G-6 - WNr.16654 to WNr.16667
Bf109G-6 - WNr.760001 to WNr.760??? (possibly G-14 mixed)
Bf109G-6 - WNr.95000 to WNr.97??? (Feb-45)

not a complete list, but definately its a Gyor built eagle.

so 74/75/76 eh, thanks guys!

 

[stona]

Cool. Can I just ask which photograph the werknummer is seen in. I have the same image that you originally posted but my notes have the werknummer as "unknown". I also have the Gyor production blocks as 96000-97000 and possibly a block starting at 760000. Both of these would exclude the werknummer you have for this aircraft.
It's all fun isn't it!
Cheers
Steve

 

[P-40K-5]

very fun! normally the WNr. would exclude it as a Gyor Eagle, but since the closest block to WNr.95182 would be Gyor,
and very far away from Erla-Lipz, WNF, Mtt-Reg blocks, the safe bet would be Gyor Bf109G-6's were 95000-97xxx.

OR

the Gyor 95xxx block could in fact be Bf109G-14's! so we discovered a new batch...say it ain't so!

 

[stona]

OR

the Gyor 95xxx block could in fact be Bf109G-14's! so we discovered a new batch...say it ain't so!

Well never say never! You will be aware that it is virtually impossible to tell a G-6 from a G-14 from a photograph.The aircraft in the picture could easily be a G-14, but I would still expect that to be from Regensburg in the absence of some hard evidence.
I just wonder if that werknummer is correct.
Cheers
Steve

 

[P-40K-5]

well heres a 'cleaned up' pic of the WNr. not sure of much more difinative it can be?

 

[stona]

We'll have to agree to disagree about how definitive that is.
I can't accept that as evidence of an entirely new and undocumented production block. That aircraft's werknummer will remain "unbekannt" in my notes and we''ll have to agree to differ

Maybe,down the line your supposition will be proven correct. That's what makes all this such fun!
Cheers
Steve