Identifying new WW2 wreck off Pt Loma, San Diego

[beldridg]

Hi,

I'm an avid wreck diver in Southern California (see Wrecked in my rEvo).

We located a new airplane wreck site last week and we are going through the process of identifying it. Step 1 is usually figuring out the type of airplane and step 2 is identifying the specific plane. In this case, I don't think we're going to be able to find a bureau number given the state of the wreck site.

We think we know what type of plane it is, but I wanted to get some additional thoughts from the experts on this forum. I don't want to bias anybody's opinion so I won't post what type of plane we think it is.

Key characteristics (with photos below) are: 14 cylinder radial engine, two oil coolers, 50 cal (I think) gun in the wing. In addition, we think it is a carrier based airplane due to a crack in the port wing that looks like where the wing would fold. I also included a picture of the wheel which is sticking down from the port side wing.

Pictures are below. I have more if anybody needs additional photos but the entire back of the fuselage behind the pilot's seat is gone (we think it might be nearby).

Thanks,

Brett Eldridge

 

[FLYBOYJ]

I'm thinking R2600 for starters. 50 cal in the wing? Starting to sound like a TBM/ TBF

 

[beldridg]

I'm thinking R2600 for starters. 50 cal in the wing? Starting to sound like a TBM/ TBF

Thanks. That is the current thinking we have as well but I'm also aware of confirmation bias so I'm trying to stress test our theory.

We believe it is a dash-1 version due to the two oil coolers.

I don't think it is, but what if the engine is a R-1830 Twin Wasp (also 14 cylinders) and not a R-2600? By looking at pictures, I think the rows of the pistons on the R-1830 are closer together, but hard to tell.

Was there anything with a R-1830 with a three-bladed prop that would match?

I did forget to mention also that the prop is three blades (as seen in a couple of the photos).

Regards,

- brett

 

[FLYBOYJ]

Thanks. That is the current thinking we have as well but I'm also aware of confirmation bias so I'm trying to stress test our theory.

We believe it is a dash-1 version due to the two oil coolers.

I don't think it is, but what if the engine is a R-1830 Twin Wasp (also 14 cylinders) and not a R-2600? By looking at pictures, I think the rows of the pistons on the R-1830 are closer together, but hard to tell.

Was there anything with a R-1830 with a three-bladed prop that would match?

I did forget to mention also that the prop is three blades (as seen in a couple of the photos).

Regards,

- brett

The reason why I'm thinking it's an R-2600 is because of the 2 oil coolers. I looked at a photo of an R-2600, I see similarities.

Then you mention the single .50 cal in the wing - I'm not aware of any other aircraft with a single wing mounted .50.

And then the wing "crack"

Note the small strut on both photos

Let me know your thoughts - this is pretty fascinating!

 

[FLYBOYJ]

Did some more digging...

The Vought SB2U did have a single .50 in the RIGHT wing, folding wings and a 14 cylinder R-1535

 

[beldridg]

Did some more digging...

The Vought SB2U did have a single .50 in the RIGHT wing, folding wings and a 14 cylinder R-1535

View attachment 666807

Good find, but I think they had a two-bladed prop? This wreck definitely had three blades.

- brett

 

[beldridg]

The reason why I'm thinking it's an R-2600 is because of the 2 oil coolers. I looked at a photo of an R-2600, I see similarities.

View attachment 666802 View attachment 666803

Then you mention the single .50 cal in the wing - I'm not aware of any other aircraft with a single wing mounted .50.

View attachment 666804

And then the wing "crack"


View attachment 666805 View attachment 666806

Note the small strut on both photos

Let me know your thoughts - this is pretty fascinating!

Good detective work. I hadn't noticed the small struts.

In terms of the armament, I know for sure the starboard wing on the wreck had that gun.

On the port wing, I didn't check specifically. In the picture above where you see the crack, you can see a "pipe" or "barrel" sticking out from the wing that I'm assuming is the front of the barrel from a gun but I haven't traced it back.

I also think the TBM/F had the wing guns on the "outside" of where the wing folded (?) so that would also make sense.

- brett

 

[mjfur]

In the first photo, does this aircraft have a spinner on the prop? If so, it helps limit the possibilities.
Additionally, the guns on a TBM do not protrude from the wing. Perhaps an early SB2C?

 

[beldridg]

In the first photo, does this aircraft have a spinner on the prop? If so, it helps limit the possibilities.
Additionally, the guns on a TBM do not protrude from the wing.

How can I tell if there is a spinner? I can try to post more pictures later today (I'm out diving all day today). I might dive that target again. If so, I'll try to take some close ups of the front of the prop.

- brett

 

[FLYBOYJ]

In the first photo, does this aircraft have a spinner on the prop? If so, it helps limit the possibilities.
Additionally, the guns on a TBM do not protrude from the wing.

They don't but remember, this was a crash and it's possible the gun was pushed forward

 

[FLYBOYJ]

How can I tell if there is a spinner? I can try to post more pictures later today (I'm out diving all day today). I might dive that target again. If so, I'll try to take some close ups of the front of the prop.

- brett

There's a lot of growth around the prop hub, I don't think there's a spinner on there. The only way to know for sure is to remove the growth.

 

[FLYBOYJ]

Good find, but I think they had a two-bladed prop? This wreck definitely had three blades.

- brett

Yes - you're correct so we can eliminate a Vindicator

 

[mjfur]

Where was the wheel position in relation to the wing? Did it fold inboard (SB2C) or outboard (TBF/TBM) or backwards (TBD)?
I'm also trying to envision how the port wing wheel could be hanging down on a TBM without any gear strut visible.

 

[FLYBOYJ]

Where was the wheel position in relation to the wing? Did it fold inboard (SB2C) or outboard (TBF/TBM) or backwards (TBD)?
I'm also trying to envision how the port wing wheel could be hanging down on a TBM without any gear strut visible.

SB2C did not have internal wing guns, when mounted, 2 .50s in each wing in a pod

 

[FLYBOYJ]

Info!

TBM Avenger

TBM Avenger found off San Diego

www.ub88.org

PURPOSE OF FLIGHT: Night Radar Bombing
MANEUVER INVOLVED: Low frequency range approach
TYPE OF ACCIDENT: Collision - Water
PLACE: Approximately two and one-half miles (2 1/2) miles west of Pt. Loma, Cal.
SPEED ON IMPACT: 110 knots
METHOD OF EXIT: Open canopy (cockpit)
TIME IN WATER: 4 hours in life raft, 5 minutes in water
METHOD OF RESCUE: Pilot picked up by civilian ship

 

[beldridg]

They don't but remember, this was a crash and it's possible the gun was pushed forward

Yes, this is a distinct possibility. If you look at the photo, you can even see the area it could have been dislodged from.

Brett

Info!

TBM Avenger

TBM Avenger found off San Diego

www.ub88.org

PURPOSE OF FLIGHT: Night Radar Bombing
MANEUVER INVOLVED: Low frequency range approach
TYPE OF ACCIDENT: Collision - Water
PLACE: Approximately two and one-half miles (2 1/2) miles west of Pt. Loma, Cal.
SPEED ON IMPACT: 110 knots
METHOD OF EXIT: Open canopy (cockpit)
TIME IN WATER: 4 hours in life raft, 5 minutes in water
METHOD OF RESCUE: Pilot picked up by civilian ship

Yeah, we know about that one and I've dove it. It is on about 250 feet of water and is a different wreck. The one we found is somewhat nearby but in 150 feet of water.

Brett

 

[beldridg]

Where was the wheel position in relation to the wing? Did it fold inboard (SB2C) or outboard (TBF/TBM) or backwards (TBD)?
I'm also trying to envision how the port wing wheel could be hanging down on a TBM without any gear strut visible.

I'm pretty sure it is NOT backwards and from our initial photos, it seems like it is outward. Below is another picture that shows what I think is a wheel well on the outboard side.


Brett

 

[SaparotRob]

I love these threads!
Thanks, beldridj.

 

[mjfur]

SB2C did not have internal wing guns, when mounted, 2 .50s in each wing in a pod

SB2C-1C SB2C-1 with two 20 mm (0.79 in) wing-mounted cannons and hydraulically operated flaps, 778 built. First to see combat.

 

[FLYBOYJ]

SB2C-1C SB2C-1 with two 20 mm (0.79 in) wing-mounted cannons and hydraulically operated flaps, 778 built. First to see combat.

From wiki - SB2C-4

• Guns:**2 × 20 mm (0.787 in) AN/M2 cannon in the wings
  • 2 × 0.30 in (7.6 mm) M1919 Browning machine guns in the rear cockpit
  • 4 X 0.50 in (13 mm) M2 Browning machine guns, two each in gunpods mounted on underwing hardpoints (optional)

Still doesn't seem to match the wreck.