If Hitler had the A Bomb how would he have used it?

[GrauGeist]

Why would Hitler have used his nuclear weapon to attack a military target? Surely he would have used it in the same way the U.S. did. Use it as a terror weapon with the threat that you'll keep on using it until the other side quits. Target any cities within range. It would have been Germany's ultimate vengeance weapon.

BTW the German's were many years away from developing a nuclear weapon. Heisenberg had made some serious mistakes.

Cheers
Steve

The U.S. didn't arbitrarily fling nukes into neighborhoods, they were industrial centers who had the benefit of being warned to evacuate long before they were bombed.

 

[davebender]

Why? Hitler's long term goal remained the same from 1933 to 1945. Eradicate communism. Give him a nuke during 1935 rather then 1945 and Stalin will still be the target.

 

[stona]

The U.S. didn't arbitrarily fling nukes into neighborhoods, they were industrial centers who had the benefit of being warned to evacuate long before they were bombed.

The intention was to destroy a city and its inhabitants and the threat,made,not implicit was that this would continue until Japan surrendered. That is hardly attacking industrial centres. How could that be done with a weapon even more indiscriminate than a conventional area raid. We know now that the U.S.didn't have anymore bombs but the Japanese did not. It fits the definition of terror for me.
Let's play spot the factory,spot the residential area in this image.

Cheers
Steve

 

[Capt. Vick]

The reason chemical weapons weren't used was because there was the threat of retaliation. If Hitler's Germany was the only country with a nuke capability, then I could see him using it. In terms of targets and timeframes, I'd go for early 1944 (if available) and attack Moscow. Cutting the head off the USSR might have gained Hitler enough breathing room to enable a more robust defence against the US and Commonwealth forces massing in the UK.

Or he could go the other way round and nuke London, which was far less remote, and then concentrate on the Eastern Front.

More whiffing to follow, no doubt.

But I think our retaliation against his use of the atom bomb would be Chemical (or biological) Weapons, which you say kept him in check from using his. The gloves would truely have been off at that point and anything would have been on the table as a weapon for use by the allies. The Imperial Japanese Army/Navy was in no position to "up the ante" so to speak after having the bomb dropped on them, while in our theoretical situation, the allies - even after being bombed would definately have enough industrial base left, mixed with a healthy dose of desire for vengeance to think up any number of devilishly horrible ways to punish Nazi Germany.

I think weapons delivery for the Nazi's would have been an issue for either one of your proposed targets as well. Mine assumes that they had not developed a suitable aircraft in parallel to deliver the weapon and thus only have the ability to use it as a truck bomb of sorts.

In the end however all speculation is moot, as we won and I believe there is no way they could have.

 

[GrauGeist]

The intention was to destroy a city and its inhabitants and the threat,made,not implicit was that this would continue until Japan surrendered. That is hardly attacking industrial centres. How could that be done with a weapon even more indiscriminate than a conventional area raid. We know now that the U.S.didn't have anymore bombs but the Japanese did not. It fits the definition of terror for me.
Let's play spot the factory,spot the residential area in this image.

Cheers
Steve

I don't intend for this to stray much further off topic, since the discussion is what Hitler (of Germany) might have done, not what the U.S. did or how people feel about the Americans using them, etc etc...wrong topic, wrong thread.

In short, however, the facts are:
Hiroshima:
Command and Control center for the Southern Defense of the homeland, 2nd General Army, Field Marshal Shunroku Hata commanding.
Also, 5th Div Headquarters as well as communication and assembly area for ground forces. Additionally, munitions equipment storage and dispersal for the region.
Light industry and cottage industry for war goods.
Casualties: 70-80 thousand killed, nearly as much wounded.

Nagasaki (secondary target):
Major shipbuilding port facilities and heavy industry including Mitsubishi steel and weapon works, etc.
Casualties: Estimated 70 thousand killed, though reported to be as high as 80 thousand. Wounded figures vary but can be compared to Hiroshima.

Of the 67 cities bombed conventionally just prior to these two nuclear bombs, Tokyo suffered great losses in it's light to heavy industry and residential areas.
Casualties: Close to 125 thousand (although some estimates double that figure) with a comparable number of wounded.

And here's Tokyo, 1945...and I quote: "Let's play spot the factory,spot the residential area in this image."

 

[kettbo]

since the early bombs were weak yield, TAC NUKE strike on Soviet forces massing for the push on Berlin Mar/Early April 45 would have sent a message....
being late in the war, and local, the most easily accomplished
Mistels on the Oder Bridgehead with atomic warheads

 

[vanir]

Taking out a very large concentration of enemy forces wouldn't have changed a thing. How many nukes did you say Hitler has in this scenario?

 

[GrauGeist]

Assuming that Hitler had a number of nukes at his disposal, his best option would most likely be to strike targets where there were military and industrial concentrations. Hitting troop concentrations would do little to stem the tide, but in hitting at the source would stop the flow of material and supplies to the Red army at the same time causing fear panic among the civilians.

For example, striking the military/industrial complexes of Moscow would not only destroy factories and supply depots, but it would also panic the population, who would evacuate the city. Now the much needed manpower for the factories (that survived) are gone...infrastructure is in chaos and faith in the war effort has been undermined...

 

[nuuumannn]

"one mi-i-i-llion dollars, mu-hu-hu-ha-ha-ha..!"

Gotta go with wiping out Moscow, after all, his goal was oil fields and lebensraum to the east. The London theory is a good one though.

 

[kettbo]

when is this happening? Mar 45? Lots depends when.
When I suggested Oder Bridgehead 3/45, supposing you could blast Moscow, get the bomb there....enemy is already at the gates present with enough stuff to get the job done AND plenty of new units working up with equipment already produced. If you destroy the bridgehead, you destroy the engineers, bridgeing eqpt, all the end item components needed, all the trained vehicle crews and ground troops...scads of them. Would take a long time indeed. Add to this that there would no longer be concentration of forces so no repeat.
Not likely you would get to Moscow 3/45
Soviet factories were moved east into the Urals for the most part, same with the labor

Say late 43 or early 44, possible sub-carried weapon to NY harbor
June/Jul 44, Mulberry off Normandy? other node in support of Normandy

Not well versed on German night attacks on London Mid-late 44

 

[vanir]

Grau Geist, how would he deliver them? Please don't tell me you're going with Amerikabomber?

 

[vanir]

Okay I'm a fiction author, I can do this. Hitler's got nukes. Cool, now what. Hmmm....

hmm...

hmm...

V2?



delivery is the problem here.

 

[GrauGeist]

vanir, going with the Germans had available at the time, I'd say a V2 would be the best option. It has the ability to get past Soviet air defenses where a Mistel or heavy bomber wouldn't.

As far as using it on the U.S., I honestly think the Germans were aware that the U.S. was working on a nuclear weapon but getting a pre-emptive nuclear strike to the U.S. mainland just wasn't possible with what they had. The Me264 prototypes were all gone by 1944, and planes like the Fw200 or Ju290 would be pushing thier limit.

 

[tyrodtom]

It took the US until 1952 to produce a warhead to near the size that would have any chance of being lifted by a V-2. That's the Mk 5 with the W-5 warhead.

 

[stona]

Hiroshima:
Command and Control center for the Southern Defense of the homeland, 2nd General Army, Field Marshal Shunroku Hata commanding.
Also, 5th Div Headquarters as well as communication and assembly area for ground forces. Additionally, munitions equipment storage and dispersal for the region.
Light industry and cottage industry for war goods.
Casualties: 70-80 thousand killed, nearly as much wounded.

Well that was worth it from a purely military point of view. You can justify just about any target that way,I'm sure Bath and Canterbury had some telephones and 'cottage industry for war goods'. Thanks for illustrating my point. The objective was to force Japan's unconditional surrender.

" The Target Committee stated that "It was agreed that psychological factors in the target selection were of great importance. Two aspects of this are (1) obtaining the greatest psychological effect against Japan and (2) making the initial use sufficiently spectacular for the importance of the weapon to be internationally recognized when publicity on it is released."

I suggest that any German targeting comittee would have considered those two factors to be of the utmost importance too. They were very keen on the psychological effects of their vengeance weapons.

Cheers
Steve

 

[GrauGeist]

It took the US until 1952 to produce a warhead to near the size that would have any chance of being lifted by a V-2. That's the Mk 5 with the W-5 warhead.

There has been alot of information regarding the German "Virus House" gathered over the years. Assuming they did in fact develop this weapon then we could use that as a basis for the V2 payload.

The "VH" was approximately 2.2 feet in diameter and weighed 2,205 pounds. That would put it just 5 pounds over the typical V2's payload (2,200 pounds).

Most of the weight in the VH was it's iron ballast for a free-fall (from a bomber, for example), to insure it fell on the plunger that crushed the Polonium/Beryllium urchin along with the shear pins that allowed the uranium plates to collapse. Being deployed as a payload for a V2 may eliminate the need for that iron ballast, since the V2 was designed to guide itself to it's target nose first.

 

[tyrodtom]

Considering that if Japan would have to be invaded, it was planned to invade from the south at Kyushu island first. Taking out the command and control center for the defense of the southern part of the country seems like a valid target.

 

[kettbo]

Thought I read somewhere is that those cities in Japan had not been bombed yet, all damage would be from the nukes, damage effects easier to study

 

[stona]

There has been alot of information regarding the German "Virus House" gathered over the years. Assuming they did in fact develop this weapon then we could use that as a basis for the V2 payload.

It's worth seeking out a version of the Farm Hall transcripts,they,or excerpts,have been published under various titles. It is evident that the German nuclear project at the end of the war was in a fairly early theoretical stage. Heisenberg and his team were working from some erroneous premises too. Left to their own devices I doubt that they would have developed any kind of viable weapon before the 1950s. It took the Soviets that long and they had the benefit of a lot of intelligence from the Manhattan project. Some of the German team were less than fully comitted and some eminent German physicists avoided working on the project as best they could. Not a problem for the allies where most physicists overcame their scruples and worked on the project. Just compare their resources to the resources comitted to 'Project Manhattan'.
Cheers
Steve

 

[tyrodtom]

Thought I read somewhere is that those cities in Japan had not been bombed yet, all damage would be from the nukes, damage effects easier to study

During the mid 60's I was stationed at Yamada Camp, which during WW2 has been part of Kokura arsenal, which had been the primary target for the bomb actually dropped on Nagasaki. Even 20 years later you could still see some evidence of WW2 bombing, the area had seen some raids, but not the extensive area bombing of some of Japans other idustrial cities.