If the USAF would not have chosen a version of the Navy's F4 Phantom as its primary fighter through 1960s to mid-1970s, what would it have chosen?

[Thumpalumpacus]

The 727 is my all-time favorite passenger jet. Go Boeing!

It was the first plane I ever flew on, Oct 1974. Braniff, El Paso to D/FW. Dad had fun telling me to watch the wings flap, which they sorta did, scaring my little eight-year-old brain.

I'd prefer a 747 any day of the week. The wings don't flap, amongst other creature comforts.

 

[SaparotRob]

From a strictly aesthetic point of view, the 727 has that "moderne" look. As a passenger in the real world, I love the "Queen of the Skies".

Can I get a "Go Boeing!" Brutha?

 

[rob23]

From a strictly aesthetic point of view, the 727 has that "moderne" look. As a passenger in the real world, I love the "Queen of the Skies".

Can I get a "Go Boeing!" Brutha?

Go Boing!

 

[SaparotRob]

Go Boing!

"Boing"?

 

[rob23]

"Boing"?

My dad worked on the 727 assembly line and being from Texas we all called Boeing 'Boing'.

 

[SaparotRob]

The things one learns here.

 

[rob23]

The things one learns here.

It takes a village.....

 

[GreenKnight121]

The US didn't "hate" the F-5, the F-5 was designed as a low-cost export day fighter and the USAF at the time didn't see an immediate need for it.

Also... the F-5A & F-5B (as introduced in 1962) were NOT air-air fighters per-se... they were strike fighters, with only rudimentary air-air capability (ranging gunsight only, no true air-air radar).

It was only with the introduction of the F-5E/F (with its Emerson Electric AN/APQ-153 multi-mode pulse-doppler radar) in 1972 that it became a really capable air-air fighter.

 

[SaparotRob]

Thread reanimation warning. Did the F-4 Phantom ever have an internally mounted cannon right out of the factory?

 

[Thumpalumpacus]

Thread reanimation warning. Did the F-4 Phantom ever have an internally mounted cannon right out of the factory?

F-4E

 

[GrauGeist]

Thread reanimation warning. Did the F-4 Phantom ever have an internally mounted cannon right out of the factory?

The C, D and E variants for the USAF had the M61 incorporated.
The E variant was the most produced.

 

[ThomasP]

For a bomb truck the USAF adopted the A-7 Corsair II in 1968(?) about a year after the USN. In theory, the F-8 Crusader, first operational in 1957, should have been able to do anything the A-7 could do if suitably modified for multi-role purposes. If you still want fighter-bomber capabilities similar to the F-4 then maybe develop a more heavily modified F-8 airframe, basically a hybrid of the F-8/A-7 airframe, but in service earlier (maybe by 1960?). The only problem I see with the F-8 airframe instead of the F-4 is space for the radar - you would be accepting a significant reduction in detection and tracking ranges by having to go to a smaller diameter (Ø21" APQ-94 vs the Ø24" used by the USAF APQ-120) radar antenna, and maybe improved Falcons instead of Sparrows.

On the other hand, the F-106 had enough space for the USN F-4's AWG-10 radar system (Ø32" antenna). A possible variant of the F-106 was to use the AN/ASG-18 radar, (Ø40" antenna) in an enlarged nose cone.

 

[GrauGeist]

The F-8 (as the V-1000 variant) was considered for the USAF MAP competition in 1969, but the F4E won out.
The other considerations were Northrop's F5A and Lockheed's CL-1200.

 

[EwenS]

Thread reanimation warning. Did the F-4 Phantom ever have an internally mounted cannon right out of the factory?

F-4E

The C, D and E variants for the USAF had the M61 incorporated.
The E variant was the most produced.

Only the F-4E and F-4F (for the Luftwaffe) had an INTERNAL cannon as a factory fit.

The F-4C & F-4D could carry the 20mm M-61 in an EXTERNAL underfuselage gun pod. Latterly it was the SUU-23/A pod. The RAF F-4M Phantom FGR.2 was also compatible with these pods from the outset, while the F-4K Phantom FG-1 was modified to be compatible after being taken over by the RAF.

 

[Maximus_823]

F-111 or f-8u

 

[SaparotRob]

I knew about the podded canon. I wasn't sure if a Phantom left the factory with 20mm internally.
I thank you guys for the responses.

 

[MIflyer]

The F4H was developed from the F3H Demon and in the process went in a significantly different direction. The original design of a "Super Demon" was single seat and armed with four 20MM cannon. Then the USN decided that fleet defense required better missiles and better emphasis on missiles. So they added a back seat, deleted the 20MM. Interestingly enough, since the back seat was put where you would normally put the air conditioning and pressurization system they allocated the space formally taken by the 20MM cannon for the air conditioned. And do to that the F-4 ended up with the strangest Environmental Control System of any aircraft, consisting to TWO different systems, one used for the avionics and one for the aircrew. The F-4 was not specifically designed for air combat maneuvers, did not do them especially well, and generally ran out of gas quite quickly after an embarrassingly short time. Hence the F-15, which we are still building OVER FIFTY YEARS after its first flight.

The leading fighter in the USAF was the F-105, which was not much good at air-to-air but beat the pants off the F-4 at ground attack. Originally they were going to build 1500 F-105's but cut the production to 750 and then proceeded to lose a bunch over NVN because the idiots ignored the SAM threat. And while the F-111 requirement for the USAF for ground attack the USN wanted it as something better than the F-4 as a missile platform for fleet defense, so the Air Force could have focused more on air-to-air, which would have been a big mistake. Among other things the F-111 did not even have working G-suit system (although we did not find that out until about 1976). Using the F-111 for air to air would have been like using the Douglas A-1 for escorting B-17's instead of the P-51.

The F-107 probably would have been a lot better at air to air than the F-105, which beat it out for a production contract.

 

[ThomasP]

I had thought of the F3H-G Super Demon, but since it was bypassed and developed into the F4H I do not know if it qualifies for this thread. If it does then there is a thread with some pretty good info on the Secret Projects forum: "What if the US Navy chose the F3H Super Demon over the F-8 Crusader"

These are a couple of images of the mock-up and a side-view drawing of the F2H 'Super Demon' from that thread.