III./JG54, Black Friday, 29 Dec 1944...

[lesofprimus]

Yea Bill... They lost alot of guys this day... Not sure what GRuppe took the worst mauling in a single day of Ops for the Luftwaffe, but theres some doozies...

 

[lesofprimus]

Also noted that the first 2 reports are the ones that will really matter, due to the time at which these combats happened.... Weiss (Stab./JG54) went down around 11am, Ungars' (11./JG54) victory was at 10:50 as was Uffz Reys' Typhoon claim...

Dortenmanns (12./JG54) claim was approx. at 12:50pm, nowhere near the 1420 hrs the Norwegians have on their reports....

Lt Pragers (9./JG54) claim at 1:37pm of a Spitfire also doesnt match up with the time....

But damn having Haanes report is the icing on the cake...

 

[drgondog]

Yea Bill... They lost alot of guys this day... Not sure what GRuppe took the worst mauling in a single day of Ops for the Luftwaffe, but theres some doozies...

I suspect that JG 301 on 26 Nov and JG 300 on 14 Jan, 1945 would be a good place to look for a really bad day at the Gruppe level

 

[lesofprimus]

Yea, I got the JG300/301 book and man, some really sobering days there Brother...

 

[Mike Williams]

Hi David:

Mike
Once again a very interesting posting. Can I ask where would be best place to look for the combat reports iro the Typhoons. I say this as at first glance they did pretty well in an aircraft not known for its dogfighting ability, flown by crews trained for GA not dogfighting and being on the receiving end of the initial bounce.
If you could point me in the right direction it would be appreciated.

Generally speaking these reports are on microfilm at Air 50 in the PRO/NA. No. 168 can be found at Air 50/70 and No. 439 at Air 50/150.

 

[Mike Williams]

Excellent Mike, THANKS for the reports... Alot of info to digest here......

Haanes report is almost unreadable, but I can figure it out.... Its a hellovalot better than what Ive been able to find so far, and his report is pretty damn important to the scheme of things...

Hello lesofprimus:

I'm glad you found those reports interesting and of use. I agree the Haanes report is most applicable to your needs. Let me know if you have any trouble reading any portion of these reports. My copies might be a little clearer and I'm used to deciphering these old documents.

 

[Airframes]

Some great info there guys.
One thing to watch out for Dan - times. The Luftwaffe worked on a different time system which, IIRC, was one hour ahead of the actual time. For example, if it was 13.00hrs in England, with the time-zone shift it would be 14.00hrs in France/Germany but, by the German time system, it would actually be 15.00hrs. Can get quite confusing at times! And, of course, this also changed, as we do, with the summer to winter time changes, i.e., back an hour form late October.

 

[lesofprimus]

Thanks to both of u for the info... I think we can exclude the 109 combats that happened after the Weiss shootdown...

Otherwise Id be making a 10 minute video....

Now if we can find some pics of the aircraft in question to solidify the camo patterns and number patterns for the planes involved we can start getting the skins put together....

 

[Airframes]

Do you want the pics of the Typhoons and Spits Dan? I'll look through my stuff to see if I have anything on the Luftwaffe aircraft involved.

 

[lesofprimus]

If we can get pics of all aircraft involved, the accuracy will be tip top.... Trying to nail down the camo jobs on the Typhoons, Spits and Dora-9's...

 

[Airframes]

OK Dan, I'll dig out what I have on the Typhoons and Spits, and scan them and post. The cammo schemes were 'standard' on both types, although the Norwegian Spits had the 'srtiped' spinners. Leave it with me, might take a day or so though!

 

[tomo pauk]

Great thread, folks. It's really hard to beleve that even after 60+ years we have a lot of researdch to do

On the tactical technical quirks:
Designer manufactured does his best to create a top bird. Then a pilots are trained to use the bird, and do manage to survive many encounters, making them battle hardened.

And then a stupid mistake on the part of air controller (that's how i get it happened) serves the pilot plane to the enemy. Suddenly all those MW-50, supercharging, deflection shooting mastery dissapears in seconds because someone else $crewed up

 

[B-17engineer]

Google Image Result for http://www.jg54greenhearts.com/Weiss_190D-9_StabIIIJG54_Varrelbusch_Germany_29Dec44.gif

This is a Dora-9 from December 29th, 1944.

I see what else I can find...

 

[Erich]

use Eagles Dora book III./JG 54/JG 26

 

[paradoxguy]

"Like my father before me, I will work the land,And like my brother above me, who took a rebel stand.He was just eighteen, proud and brave, But a Yankee laid him in his grave,And I swear by the mud below my feet,You can't raise a Caine back up when he's in defeat."

I noticed the quote from "The Night They Drove Old Dixie Down" and I had to say I'm glad to see another fan of the Band here. Sorry for the interruption and back to our regular program...

 

[B-17engineer]

I noticed the quote from "The Night They Drove Old Dixie Down" and I had to say I'm glad to see another fan of the Band here. Sorry for the interruption and back to our regular program...

Love that song.

Anyways 8) I'll look for more stuff...

 

[stona]

This might help a bit Dan.
Note: It was common for the MkIX Spit to be refered to, in the RAF, as a 'MkIXb', even though it would be a 'C' wing, or even the 'E' wing. This has caused, and will no doubt continue to cause confusion and frustration to reserachers using material written or sourced from veteran Spit pilots!

How very true Sir, the RAF was amazingly haphazard in its use of nomenclature, not just for Spitfires!!!
Steve

 

[GrauGeist]

OK Dan, I'll dig out what I have on the Typhoons and Spits, and scan them and post. The cammo schemes were 'standard' on both types, although the Norwegian Spits had the 'srtiped' spinners. Leave it with me, might take a day or so though!

Hey Terry,

Have you had any luck finding your Spit/Tiffy camo scheme images?

 

[Airframes]

Ah! Sh** ! Sorry, forgot! This post seemed tp drop of the screen - out of sight out of mind! I'll get onto it and post something asap!

 

[Erich]

you guys have access to a copy of Shores/Thomas 2nd TAC, volume 2 ? the camo is there albeit a bit on the dark side I think