Impact of one change on HMS Glorious

[Admiral Beez]

June 8, 1940, HMS Glorious still has half her boilers cold, no CAP aloft and still apparently a negligent ex-submariner as C/O. But…. our change; all five Swordfish are ranged aft, each with a torpedo, engines continuously warmed and their pilots and gunners suited up at 5 mins warning. At 16:00 HMS Ardent reports Scharnhorst and Gneisenau are approaching. Glorious launches all five Swordfish. Any difference in outcome?

 

[ThomasP]

I think it would depend almost entirely on whether the Swordfish scored any hits and what damage the hits did.

 

[Thumpalumpacus]

Just getting the aircraft aloft quickly might make the Germans a little more cautious, granted their own lack of air-cover.

Enough to save the Glorious? I'm doubtful. Warming up the offline boilers will take some time, and meanwhile you have to hope one or two of the torpedoes landed home before Glo can get a running start.

 

[SaparotRob]

With half her boilers out I don't think "running start" would be quite the right phrase.
I don't remember how many Swordfish were attacking KMS Bismarck and if it was multiple strikes. Bismarck was struck by at least 2 torpedoes. The 5 Stringbags would have to extremely good to hit both S and G to try to at least slow them down. Perhaps one but not both. Although, maybe that's all that would have been needed. The undamaged battleship/battlecruiser would have to escort her damaged sister back to a friendly port. The best alteration to the timeline would be for D'Oyly Hughes to slip in the shower and break his neck the day before.

 

[Thumpalumpacus]

With half her boilers out I don't think "running start" would be quite the right phrase.
I don't remember how many Swordfish were attacking KMS Bismarck and if it was multiple strikes. Bismarck was struck by at least 2 torpedoes. The 5 Stringbags would have to extremely good to hit both S and G to try to at least slow them down. Perhaps one but not both. Although, maybe that's all that would have been needed. The undamaged battleship/battlecruiser would have to escort her damaged sister back to a friendly port. The best alteration to the timeline would be for D'Oyly Hughes to slip in the shower and break his neck the day before.

Victorious launched a decent strike, I think eight or so Swordfish, at Bismarck, with one inconsequential hit(?) on the belt. Ark Royal launched the two strikes (first attacking Sheffield), and the second landing a couple of hits, including the eventually-fatal rudder hit. A lot more than five Stringbags involved.

Glorious would have to hope for at least one of her five planes to score an honest hit. Perhaps such a hit would've dissuaded Hoffman from further pursuit. But I don't think five Swordfish versus two BCs have that much opportunity, myself.

Glorious got caught napping, but I doubt five torpedo bombers would've changed much. They couldn't avail themselves of reloads given circumstances, and both launching and landing would have to take wind into account, further complicating matters.

A standing patrol of a couple of airplanes would have helped much better in order to spot and avoid, not combat, the Ugly Sisters. Having more boilers online would be useful too.

 

[The Basket]

Wilhelm Marschall was under orders not to engage enemy forces. Which he broke and was punished by been relieved of command.

So a more spirited attack could have tipped Marschall to retreat early to follow the orders he had.

Especially if there was a lot of radio traffic.

The issues on the Glorious would have been unknown to Marschall so all he would know is he is facing torpedo strikes with more to come.

So in my view....yes....the torpedo strikes may have given Marschall enough doubt to disengage as he was already breaking orders and a damaged Scharnhorst or Gneisenau would have been bad form.

 

[The Basket]

In real terms...the idea that Scharnhorst and Gneisenau would attack a RN carrier is bonkers.

It's utterly suicidal. You have wave after wave of torpedo strikes, the carrier escort and Lord only knows what is coming over the horizon. Renown saw both of them off a month earlier.

Plus you should have spotted a few dozen miles away. Plus speed wise Glorious is on a par with the sisters.

Saw we should have had 2 sunk German capital ships. Marschall was very very lucky and he was right to be punished.

 

[Admiral Beez]

Just getting the aircraft aloft quickly might make the Germans a little more cautious, granted their own lack of air-cover.

Enough to save the Glorious? I'm doubtful. Warming up the offline boilers will take some time, and meanwhile you have to hope one or two of the torpedoes landed home before Glo can get a running start.

The first hit on Glorious was scored at 26,000 yards, a remarkable range, essentially equal to HMS Warpsite's incredible >26,000 yard hit on the Italian battleship Giulio Cesare at the Battle of Calabria in June 1940. If S&G are needing to evade the incoming Swordfish, in addition to HMS Ardent and Acasta, the Germans may have trouble laying their guns. Without those first early long range hits Glorious may have the time she needs to flee, but maybe not.

What of the rest of Glorious' CAG, the nine Sea Gladiators? Should they be brought up and launched to distract fire on the Swordfish? And how quickly can a Swordfish be re-armed? I'd be tempted to recover any surviving Swordfish after they've attacked and send them out again with a fresh fish. Were Sea Gladiators of the time bomb capable?

but I doubt five torpedo bombers would've changed much. They couldn't avail themselves of reloads given circumstances, and both launching and landing would have to take wind into account

I don't think the wind would impact the Swordfish abilities to land, reload and take off. These were the most STOL-capable torpedo bombers of the war, even with a 2,000 lb. fish slung between her legs.

Wilhelm Marschall was under orders not to engage enemy forces. Which he broke and was punished by been relieved of command.
So a more spirited attack could have tipped Marschall to retreat early to follow the orders he had. Especially if there was a lot of radio traffic. The issues on the Glorious would have been unknown to Marschall so all he would know is he is facing torpedo strikes with more to come.

To Marschall's defence, he stumbled across Glorious, he wasn't seeking a fight. But once you spot a carrier, you must expect an air strike to be launched, so either you turn and flee to face a large strike within the hour, or try to stop the strike from launching by sinking the carrier.

So in my view....yes....the torpedo strikes may have given Marschall enough doubt to disengage as he was already breaking orders and a damaged Scharnhorst or Gneisenau would have been bad form.

If either S&G are further damaged it will be fatal, as HMS Ark Royal is racing down to help and will launch her much larger CAG. As it was HMS Acasta's torpedo attack blew a 39-foot hole in Scharnhorst's flooding and disabling her starboard engine room.

 

[space dodo]

i doubt the sword fishes would of done much as stated before they scored 2 hits on the bismark and it survived. this is if they managed to not get shredded by AA before they launched their torpedos. A bigger change would have been if the the brits managed to radio for help

 

[Admiral Beez]

i doubt the sword fishes would of done much as stated before they scored 2 hits on the bismark and it survived.

True. Until Force Z no battleship at sea was sunk by torpedoes, but look at the single TSR at Matapan, putting a torpedo into the new battleship Veneto, stopping her dead in the water for a couple of hours. The five Swordfish need only delay, not even damage S&G and Glorious will make it to safety.... likely at the cost of her two destroyers and most of the Swordfish. Then the court-martial of her CO can begin.

 

[The Basket]

Bin long time since looked at sinking of Glorious so plenty of gaps in my memory.

I should do some research on why the sisters where there and why Marschall was told to avoid combat. But football is on and I am supposed to be working...

If you were trying to avoid combat them why are you in the middle of the North Sea? Answers on a postcard for that one.

Had D'oyly Hughes survived, would he have been court martialled?

For the incompetent killing of 1500 men? That would be impossible as it would make the Navy look like fools.

 

[Glider]

The best solution is Five operational Swordfish, no torpedo's, operating a shuttle search pattern. Spots the Germans when they are well out of visual range of the carrier. Carrier can stay well out of trouble and launch the armed swordfish, let the fun begin.

If you want to add to the fun, launch the Arado 196's and try to intercept the Swordfish

Germans would have to run as they would probably guess that the Carrier would have an escort of capital ships.

 

[Thumpalumpacus]

deleted by Thump, the maintenance completely screwed up the quoting system

Edit 2: clearing my browser cache and then reopening seems to have solved the issue. Ignore my report.

Edit 3: the above step solved the problem, which appears to have been a short-circuit located somewhere between my ears.

 

[Thumpalumpacus]

The first hit on Glorious was scored at 26,000 yards, a remarkable range, essentially equal to HMS Warpsite's incredible >26,000 yard hit on the Italian battleship Giulio Cesare at the Battle of Calabria in June 1940. If S&G are needing to evade the incoming Swordfish, in addition to HMS Ardent and Acasta, the Germans may have trouble laying their guns. Without those first early long range hits Glorious may have the time she needs to flee, but maybe not.

The S&G pull 31 kts at speed, and have 28 105mm, 32 37mm, and at least 20 20mm AA cannons between them. The five a/c posited aloft can either attack piecemeal, or take time to organize before strike for a pinion . But with 1/3 of Glo's boilers offline (presumably limiting speed to about 21 kts), and it taking between 45 minutes to an hour to raise useful steam, I'm skeptical they can make much of a difference.

If in the interest of mounting an immediate attack, almost surely the planes would attack individually and not be able to take advantage of dividing fire. I'd think the losses would be higher, too, affecting prospects for a second strike.

What of the rest of Glorious' CAG, the nine Sea Gladiators? Should they be brought up and launched to distract fire on the Swordfish?

Are they combat-loaded, i.e. closest to the lifts? Remember, the carrier is also transshipping 28 other planes from Norway to England. Are those planes out of the way? If so, then sure, Gladiators could help with mock-runs if nothing else.

And how quickly can a Swordfish be re-armed? I'd be tempted to recover any surviving Swordfish after they've attacked and send them out again with a fresh fish. Were Sea Gladiators of the time bomb capable?

I don't know how long it takes to turn a Swordfish around from landing, rearming/refueling, and then relaunching.

I don't think Gladiators were bomb-capable at that time, but that's more an "absence of evidence" thang. Even if not, dummy attacks surely would help, a la Samar.

I don't think the wind would impact the Swordfish abilities to land, reload and take off. These were the most STOL-capable torpedo bombers of the war, even with a 2,000 lb. fish slung between her legs.

A fair point which I'd forgotten to include in my thinking, but I'm not sure it obviates the concerns above.

To Marschall's defence, he stumbled across Glorious, he wasn't seeking a fight. But once you spot a carrier, you must expect an air strike to be launched, so either you turn and flee to face a large strike within the hour, or try to stop the strike from launching by sinking the carrier.

Even without the first long hit, I suspect the Glorious would be caught so long as none of the torpedoes hit. At full speeds under the circumstances, 45 minutes steaming at full speed by all involved would result in the BCs being much closer, and within 5.9" range as well.

As to whether Marschall would take up the chase, I'd think that relies upon how fast the Swordfish can form up (if they do that), or how effective individual attacks might be if that is the road chosen.

If either S&G are further damaged it will be fatal, as HMS Ark Royal is racing down to help and will launch her much larger CAG. As it was HMS Acasta's torpedo attack blew a 39-foot hole in Scharnhorst's flooding and disabling her starboard engine room.

True enough. At any rate, simply having aircraft aloft would have helped somewhat. I'm just doubtful it would have been enough.

 

[Shortround6]

Just because a plane has STOL performance or near STOL Performance does not mean the wind can be disregarded.

The carrier may not need to turn into the wind for take-off performance but depending on wind strength the cross wind may cause problems.

Without a change in historical timing The British may not have had the time needed to launch a strike unless the planes were already loaded and on deck.

Easiest change for the British would have been to implement some sort of air patrol to extend search horizon for earlier warning.

 

[The Basket]

D'oyly Hughes was a highly regarded war hero. So there is the problem that he was given more leeway that his actions deserved.

I guess the sisters been there was unknown so maybe give the cap a bit of slack? He was not advised he would meet anything.

Does anyone know about the convoy running same day and what escort that had? Where there any big gun ships nearby? Not including Devonshire obviously.

 

[Admiral Beez]

Does anyone know about the convoy running same day and what escort that had? Where there any big gun ships nearby? Not including Devonshire obviously.

We'll need a higher resolution version of this map.

 

[Thumpalumpacus]

D'oyly Hughes was a highly regarded war hero. So there is the problem that he was given more leeway that his actions deserved.

I guess the sisters been there was unknown so maybe give the cap a bit of slack? He was not advised he would meet anything.

Meh, highly-regarded and useful are clearly two different things. Admiralty clearly made a poor command decision in this case. What carrier captain in contested waters doesn't mount any semblance of patrol at all?

The incompetence rose higher than the ship, to my thinking.

 

[The Basket]

I gots loads questions which means I cannot gives an true opinion untils I knows all the answers.

Why was Glorious doing what she was doing and what should she be doing?

What were the sisters doing and did the British naval intelligence know what they were doing?

Were there any heavy capital ships in the area and what was going on with them?

Was Glorious on a Sunday afternoon cruise in the middle of a war zone?

Surely she should be faster? Even to avoid submarines?

Were her decks full of the RAF aircraft and did this limit her air power?

Was her lack of speed a hinderence to launching aircraft?

Problem is from a tactical point of view you need speed. Cos that is a huge advantage in naval warfare. And low on fuel then sail with the slow convoy.

Lots of questions and I doubt we shall ever get the answers.

Problem is anyone who has serves day 1 in any military outfit will have seen plenty of D'Oyly Hughes. And so we get a cover up. Where the Navy will never admit that the Navy messed up. Someone gave him command of a warship which he was ill suited and had no experience. His own bluff and bluster and heroic war record hid the weaknesses of his command.

The destroyer action showed the best of the Royal Navy. Bravery and courage against huge odds. But again it should never have got to that.

 

[Admiral Beez]

Problem is anyone who has serves day 1 in any military outfit will have seen plenty of D'Oyly Hughes.

Usually the peacetime commanders and senior officers who rose through nepotism, networking and decades-old laurels get moved to desk jobs to be replaced by commanders and senior officers of merit and capability. Look at the USN, all of the famous and successful leaders replaced desk jockeys and career men once the fighting started. Before the war, Nimitz was the chief of the USN's Bureau of Navigation, but after Pearl Harbour FDR appointed Nimitz to CINCPACFLT. I'm sure that huge promotion annoyed the D'Oyly Hughes types of the USN.

But every so often one gets through to do great damage, like Kimmel at Pearl Harbour. Or Phillips with Force Z and his decisions to not tell the RAF where he was going, and to place his ships within easy striking range of land based bombers from FIC. I'd like to think that Cunningham, Sommerville or Fraser would have done something else - such as coordinating with the RAF to leave the IJN landing ships in the China Sea to the Hudsons and Blenheims, and keeping Force Z well out to sea to catch anything coming from the south, and using his eight(!) Shagbats to discover and flee from the approaching IJN second fleet (2xBC, 8xCA, 1xCL, 8xDD).

D'Oyly Hughes, with no appreciation of naval aviation had no business being in command of an aircraft carrier. Running on half boilers may be explained away by lack of fuel or perhaps mechanical issues. But he had nine Sea Gladiators and five working Swordfish, that's more than sufficient to run a CAP with the fighters and have the five TSRs armed and ready to go on the flight deck. The RAF Gladiators and Hurricanes were already struck below.