Instructional documents on Box Formation flying in the USAAF 8th Airforce?

[JDCAVE]

I am working on a document on "Gaggle Formations" used by RAF Bomber Command in the last part of 1944 and through 1945, and want to understand the technical differences in Gaggle Formation Flying and Box Formation flying in the USAAF 8th Airforce? The former were kind of "Loosey Goosie" (if you'll pardon the pun) and the latter highly precise. I know the 8th used specially identified aircraft (some garishly painted) on which crews "formated", but I'm sure there was more to it than that. I would be interested in obtaining Instructional documents on Box Formation flying in the USAAF 8th Airforce, if anything exists.

I have a similar series of documents on Gaggles, which according to the 6-Group ORB, were used for the first time in December 1944. A particularly unfortunate failure of the Gaggle navigation occurred on the raid to Hamburg, March 31, 1945, when the navigation of one of the 6-Group Gaggles failed, the gaggle was outside of fighter cover, and 8 aircraft were shot down by Me.262's.

Royal Canadian Air Force operations record book... - Héritage

Jim

 

[pbehn]

I found this What was a 'Gaggle' Operation flown in 1945 by Bomber Command after V.E. Day?
"This was no ordinary operation, 294 Lancasters from 1 Group plus the usual quota of Mosquitoes from 8 Group. At briefing we were told that as Bomber Command had been venturing into Germany and particularly Happy Valley in daylight, and, unlike the Americans, had not been attacked by large numbers of fighters, there was concern that because of our techniques in Bomber Command, each aircraft making its own way to the target in the Bomber stream, we might be very vulnerable to fighter attack. We could not possibly adopt the American system of flying in mass formations and do some boffin somewhere had come up with the 'brilliant' idea that we should indulge in gaggle flying. No practice, mind, just – this what you do chaps – get on with it. The idea was that 3 Lancasters would have their tail fins painted bright yellow and would be the leading 'Vic' formation. All other aircraft would take off, find another squadron aircraft and formate on it. Each pair would then pack in together behind the leading 'vic' and the lead Navigator would do the navigating with the rest of the force following. The route on the flight plan took us across Belgium crossed the Rhine between Duisburg and Dusseldorf then passing Wuppertal and North East into the target area. All went well until we were approaching the Rhine when the lead navigator realised we were two minutes early. It was important not to be early or we would arrive on target before the pathfinders had done their job. The technique for losing two minutes was to do a two minute 'dog-leg'. When ordered by the lead nav, this involved doing a 45 degrees starboard turn, two minutes flying, 90 degree port turn, 2 minutes flying, 45 degree starboard turn and we were then back on track."

and

A Google search brought up this link which contained the subsequent paragraph:
https://www.bbc.co.uk/history/ww2peo...a2281033.shtml . It's a lengthy story and I had to search hard to find the sentence/paragraph.

There was a rule of thumb for low level bombing that allowed one foot of height for every pound of the heaviest bomb carried, and since we always carried a 4000-pounder our' lowest safe' was 4000 feet. Kleve, near the Dutch border, about 10 miles from Nijmegan, was wiped off the map from this height in support of the British Army after operation Market Garden, and was one of the two instances when we flew at other than our usual height. The other occasion was a daylight attack on an oil target at Bremen. When the RAF resumed day bombing to a limited degree after D Day, it was done in the same way as night bombing: every crew did their own thing! However, when you could see where the other aircraft were, the tendency was to tuck in close and join the stream, and so evolved the Gaggle. Since everyone was going to follow the leader, the thing to do was to select crews with the best navigators to form a leading Vic. of three to lead the way. On the Bremen Op. mentioned above, we had the doubtful honour of being the starboard element of the leading Vic. It was one of those rare days in Europe when there was not a cloud in the sky, and the force of 104 Lancasters went in at 12000 feet. The reason was that a couple of miles to our left, 19 Lancasters of 617 (Dambuster) sqdn were heading in to attack a railway bridge with some heavy metal.

 

[JDCAVE]

Thanks P. However, I'm looking for documents on formation flying in the USAAF. I have detailed documents from 6-Group on Gaggle flying.

The Wikipedia article on the "Combat Box" is somewhat informative but is rather lacking in detail. This book seems an interesting source, but I don't have a copy:

Freeman, Roger A. (1991). The Mighty Eighth War Manual, Motorbooks International,

Jim

 

[pbehn]

Thanks J. However, I'm looking for documents on formation flying in the USAAF. I have detailed documents from 6-Group on Gaggle flying.

The Wikipedia article on the "Combat Box" is somewhat informative but is rather lacking in detail. This book seems an interesting source, but I don't have a copy:

Freeman, Roger A. (1991). The Mighty Eighth War Manual, Motorbooks International,

Jim

Have you seen this? 398th Bomb Group Combat Formations By Wally Blackwell, Pilot 601st Squadron December 2003

 

[JDCAVE]

Have you seen this? 398th Bomb Group Combat Formations By Wally Blackwell, Pilot 601st Squadron December 2003

PBehn: Thanks so much! That is exactly what I'm looking for!

Jim

 

[pbehn]

PBehn: Thanks so much! That is exactly what I'm looking for!

Jim

If you read the wiki page Combat box - Wikipedia you can see it wasn't a constant and B-17s used slightly different formations. Also from what I have read the formation spacing changed on a mission, a tight formation is better for air defence but worse against ground flak.

 

[aacs45]

LeMay talks about the rationale behind the box formation and its implementation in his book Mission With LeMay.

 

[Thumpalumpacus]

If you read the wiki page Combat box - Wikipedia you can see it wasn't a constant and B-17s used slightly different formations. Also from what I have read the formation spacing changed on a mission, a tight formation is better for air defence but worse against ground flak.

Indeed, and the combat box would often be loosened near and over the target, to be tightened later, upon egressing the flak zone.

 

[JDCAVE]

I have finally found the definitive document I was looking for! I knew it was out there somewhere!

Eighth Air Force tactical development, August 1942 – May 1945. - World War II Operational Documents - Ike Skelton Combined Arms Research Library (CARL) Digital Library (oclc.org)

Jim

 

[drgondog]

Thanks P. However, I'm looking for documents on formation flying in the USAAF. I have detailed documents from 6-Group on Gaggle flying.

The Wikipedia article on the "Combat Box" is somewhat informative but is rather lacking in detail. This book seems an interesting source, but I don't have a copy:

Freeman, Roger A. (1991). The Mighty Eighth War Manual, Motorbooks International,

Jim

I recommend Freeman's The Mighty Eighth War Manual as a 'must have' in your library.

Often overlooked and frequently mis-understood, is that 8th AF doctrine evolved to meet the greater threat, while still striving to achieve efficent bomb aiming and results. The tactics of the B-24/2nd BD were decidedly different from 1st and 3rd BD B-17s due to performance variations.

Look also to Curtis LeMay and 305BG as leading innovators in critical stage of 8th AF operations in fall 1942 through spring 1943 for Staggered Combat Box as well as Lead Crew slection and training processes.

 

[tourswag]

I am working on a document on "Gaggle Formations" used by RAF Bomber Command in the last part of 1944 and through 1945, and want to understand the technical differences in Gaggle Formation...the gaggle was outside of fighter cover, and 8 aircraft were shot down by Me.262's.

Royal Canadian Air Force operations record book... - Héritage

Jim

Hi Jim, I found your post looking up something else... typical internet.

Please note that in the ORB there is no mention of fighter cover/escort.
The RCAF/ RAF typically operated without.
The "P.F.F." Pathfinders were special duty Squadron/ Aircrew to mark targets with coloured flares... colour of the day the mark target as the Germans might try to divert by using flares. At times the flares might be changed if the "red" was off, the Master Bomber may try to correct by calling green, yellow etc. Typical use of the Pathfinder and Master Bomber who may circle overhead calling corrections or secondary targets to bombers in the stream.
"A/P" is attack point or target.

Dad was with 427, he was on leave the 31st ( I have his log) they'd had a tough go the 25th with badly wounded flight Engineer, flak through windscreen and a motor out.
This leave gave dad a chance to visit his brother in hospital. A medic, he'd been wounded and captured... stole a pistol and forced his captors to carry him back to Canadian lines.
They all made it home.

The tactics and equipment were very different - Dad was always struck that the Lancaster could carry the load of 2 B17's with only 7 crew; 1 Pilot*, Air Bomber, Navigator, Wireless/H2S, Flight Engineer, Mid-Upper Gunner. Rear Gunner. * generally the Flight Engineer, Air Bomber or Nav were expected to take over if pilot was out.
There could be at times a specialised operator for H2S radar, electronic counter measures, and some Halifax aircraft ( 425 Sqn) were briefly equipped with a belly, or "dorsal" turret.
Dad posited that the Mosquito could have won the war itself if they'd built enought; fast, good range, 4 guns, 4 cannons and carried up to a 4000 pound bomb with only 2 crew endangered.

Cheers, Mike

 

[JDCAVE]

Hi Jim, I found your post looking up something else... typical internet.

Please note that in the ORB there is no mention of fighter cover/escort.
The RCAF/ RAF typically operated without.
The "P.F.F." Pathfinders were special duty Squadron/ Aircrew to mark targets with coloured flares... colour of the day the mark target as the Germans might try to divert by using flares. At times the flares might be changed if the "red" was off, the Master Bomber may try to correct by calling green, yellow etc. Typical use of the Pathfinder and Master Bomber who may circle overhead calling corrections or secondary targets to bombers in the stream.
"A/P" is attack point or target.

Dad was with 427, he was on leave the 31st ( I have his log) they'd had a tough go the 25th with badly wounded flight Engineer, flak through windscreen and a motor out.
This leave gave dad a chance to visit his brother in hospital. A medic, he'd been wounded and captured... stole a pistol and forced his captors to carry him back to Canadian lines.
They all made it home.

The tactics and equipment were very different - Dad was always struck that the Lancaster could carry the load of 2 B17's with only 7 crew; 1 Pilot*, Air Bomber, Navigator, Wireless/H2S, Flight Engineer, Mid-Upper Gunner. Rear Gunner. * generally the Flight Engineer, Air Bomber or Nav were expected to take over if pilot was out.
There could be at times a specialised operator for H2S radar, electronic counter measures, and some Halifax aircraft ( 425 Sqn) were briefly equipped with a belly, or "dorsal" turret.
Dad posited that the Mosquito could have won the war itself if they'd built enought; fast, good range, 4 guns, 4 cannons and carried up to a 4000 pound bomb with only 2 crew endangered.

Cheers, Mike

Hi Mike and welcome. The ORBs do not provide the tactical and organizational details for your father's operations that you may be interested in researching. You have to go elsewhere for this information. I have the operational orders (Form B's) for all of dad's ops. They identify the numbers of fighter escort squadrons on patrol and the rendezvous points. The only exception was dad's operation to Mathias Stinnes, 24-March-1945, on which occasion there was so many allied fighters over enemy territory, there was no specific escort assigned.

If you wish to see some of these documents for your father's operations, I could provide them to you. I do not however have these for January or April,1945. I also have the review of the events of 31-March-1945. Bomber Command was highly critical of 6-Group procedures on that day.

Jim

 

[JDCAVE]

Hi Mike and welcome. The ORBs do not provide the tactical and organizational details for your father's operations that you may be interested in researching. You have to go elsewhere for this information. I have the operational orders (Form B's) for all of dad's ops. They identify the numbers of fighter escort squadrons on patrol and the rendezvous points. The only exception was dad's operation to Mathias Stinnes, 24-March-1945, on which occasion there was so many allied fighters over enemy territory, there was no specific escort assigned.

If you wish to see some of these documents for your father's operations, I could provide them to you. I do not however have these for January or April,1945. I also have the review of the events of 31-March-1945. Bomber Command was highly critical of 6-Group procedures on that day.

Jim

Mike: Was your father in "T", ME.501, this record? My father was on this operation. I have considerable details on it if you are interested.

Royal Canadian Air Force operations record book... - Héritage

Royal Canadian Air Force operations record books : C-12300

heritage.canadiana.ca

Edit: Further to this, it seems the Rear Gunner, "Proudlove" was wounded by flak:

Royal Canadian Air Force operations record book... - Héritage

Royal Canadian Air Force operations record books : C-12300

heritage.canadiana.ca

Jim

 

[tourswag]

Hi Jim, Yes that's dad. I have the ORBs, 427 Sqn Assoc did a "War Diary' in the 80's which dad scribbled notes- I transcribed them and they are at the 427 Assoc website.
I'd be interested in anything you have. F/O FD Kaye flew at 427 Jan 16 1945 to June 1 1945
Cheers, Mike Kaye

 

[JDCAVE]

Hi Jim, Yes that's dad. I have the ORBs, 427 Sqn Assoc did a "War Diary' in the 80's which dad scribbled notes- I transcribed them and they are at the 427 Assoc website.
I'd be interested in anything you have. F/O FD Kaye flew at 427 Jan 16 1945 to June 1 1945
Cheers, Mike Kaye

Very Good! PM me your email address. I will send you a "Tranche" of Documents. Give me a list of his operations and I will send you the Form "B"'s. These are highly informative. I also have a limited selection of the 100-Group material. Mostly germane to the Night operations.

Edit: I will be away for a few days and may not be able to send a WeTransfer until Tuesday, Wednesday.

The ORB's, while highly informative for your father's records, are of limited value for the tactical aspects to the events. BTW, I have all of the turning points and routes for some of this material. This the route for Hanover, 25-March-1945:

March 25, 1945 Target Hanover - Google My Maps

March 25, 1945 Target Hanover

www.google.com

Jim