Introduction of pilot armor on the Hurricane and Spitfire

[slaterat]

I posted some of this before and it seems to be a recurring question, so I thought I would provide some relevant documentation in an easy to find thread.

 

[slaterat]

and some more,

 

[Mike Williams]

and some more,

Good stuff slaterat, thanks for sharing!

 

[elbmc1969]

Were the Hurricanes delivered without radios? That seems to be what "armour1.jpg" says.

The comment about Armstrong-Whitworth on that page is darkly hilarious.

Thanks for posting this.

 

[IFollowRoads]

Were the Hurricanes delivered without radios? That seems to be what "armour1.jpg" says.

The comment about Armstrong-Whitworth on that page is darkly hilarious.

Thanks for posting this.

I was a docent at a "flying museum" (all of our aircraft flew). One of our aircraft was a Spitfire. In the early days of the war, only the flight leaders had radios. They passed along the information or commands by using Morris Code on their navigation lights. The system had been disconnected long before we got it, but the key in the form of a black button was on the lower right-hand corner of the instrument panel. Our A&P mechanic confirmed at one time it had wires but no idea where they went. The docents puzzled over what this strange button was for until two mechanics came over from RR factory in England to take the engine off and send it to California for repair. We asked and they explained the use of the strange button. Finally, a good night's sleep.

 

[buffnut453]

Were the Hurricanes delivered without radios? That seems to be what "armour1.jpg" says.

Radios, together with guns and gunsights (and probably a few other items) were Government Furnished Equipment that was typically installed at a Maintenance Unit before the aircraft was delivered to an operational squadron.

 

[elbmc1969]

I was a docent at a "flying museum" (all of our aircraft flew). One of our aircraft was a Spitfire. In the early days of the war, only the flight leaders had radios. They passed along the information or commands by using Morris Code on their navigation lights. The system had been disconnected long before we got it, but the key in the form of a black button was on the lower right-hand corner of the instrument panel. Our A&P mechanic confirmed at one time it had wires but no idea where they went. The docents puzzled over what this strange button was for until two mechanics came over from RR factory in England to take the engine off and send it to California for repair. We asked and they explained the use of the strange button. Finally, a good night's sleep.

Thanks!

Not much good for "He's on your six!" is it?

 

[elbmc1969]

Radios, together with guns and gunsights (and probably a few other items) were Government Furnished Equipment that was typically installed at a Maintenance Unit before the aircraft was delivered to an operational squadron.

Sorry, you didn't understand the question. See the image of the page.

 

[buffnut453]

I was a docent at a "flying museum" (all of our aircraft flew). One of our aircraft was a Spitfire. In the early days of the war, only the flight leaders had radios. They passed along the information or commands by using Morris Code on their navigation lights. The system had been disconnected long before we got it, but the key in the form of a black button was on the lower right-hand corner of the instrument panel. Our A&P mechanic confirmed at one time it had wires but no idea where they went. The docents puzzled over what this strange button was for until two mechanics came over from RR factory in England to take the engine off and send it to California for repair. We asked and they explained the use of the strange button. Finally, a good night's sleep.

I'd like to see a contemporary source on that because, frankly, it sounds bogus to me. The idea that only flight leaders had radios just doesn't make sense. What happens if the flight leader has to abort due to an engine problem? Does the whole formation return to base? That seems rather stupid and entirely contradicts pre-war training using ground controlled intercept based on the Chain Home system.

Prior to WW2, RAF fighter squadrons practiced "Fighting Area" tactics and close formations of vics. Why waste time with morse code (not morris code!) when a hand signal from the section leader can readily provide direction to the formating aircraft? Now, the morse signaller could have been useful for communicating the letter of the day to either a ship or to the ground....but I don't buy the idea that it was used for communication within a formation of aircraft.

Also, please bear in mind that RAF fighters had radios long before the Hurricane or Spitfire entered service - the TR9C HF radio entered service in the early 1930s and the improved TR9D from 1937 onwards. The RAF started installing VHF radios (TR1133) into fighters in October 1939.

 

[buffnut453]

Sorry, you didn't understand the question. See the image of the page.

At post #4 you asked "Were the Hurricanes delivered without radios?" That's the question I answered. What, exactly, did I fail to understand?

The referenced image makes no mention of radios, only the rates of armour installation on various aircraft types.

 

[IFollowRoads]

I'd like to see a contemporary source on that because, frankly, it sounds bogus to me. The idea that only flight leaders had radios just doesn't make sense. What happens if the flight leader has to abort due to an engine problem? Does the whole formation return to base? That seems rather stupid and entirely contradicts pre-war training using ground controlled intercept based on the Chain Home system.

Prior to WW2, RAF fighter squadrons practiced "Fighting Area" tactics and close formations of vics. Why waste time with morse code (not morris code!) when a hand signal from the section leader can readily provide direction to the formating aircraft? Now, the morse signaller could have been useful for communicating the letter of the day to either a ship or to the ground....but I don't buy the idea that it was used for communication within a formation of aircraft.

Also, please bear in mind that RAF fighters had radios long before the Hurricane or Spitfire entered service - the TR9C HF radio entered service in the early 1930s and the improved TR9D from 1937 onwards. The RAF started installing VHF radios (TR1133) into fighters in October 1939.

Britain entered WW2 in Sept 1939 and we were told it was used in the early days of the war. Your time frame for the RAF beginning to install radios in fighters in October 1939 seems to be in line with what we were told. Also hand signals are difficult to use at night.

 

[buffnut453]

Britain entered WW2 in Sept 1939 and we were told it was used in the early days of the war. Your time frame for the RAF beginning to install radios in fighters in October 1939 seems to be in line with what we were told. Also hand signals are difficult to use at night.

The October 1939 date was for longer-ranged VHF radios. The RAF had introduced HF radios in 1932-1933 and had experience operating them for over 6 years BEFORE the outbreak of WW2 in September 1939.

The short range of the HF sets was overcome by establishing repeater sites forward of the Sector Stations to ensure coverage.

So, no, my dates don't align with your anecdotal story. Again, please provide a credible source.

Finally, Fighter Command didn't have any trained night fighters in 1939 and they never operated night fighters in formation. And day fighters are not going to be flying formation at night...so even the morse option is not viable. Bottom line - you can't operate night fighters without radios, period.

 

[Mike Williams]

I seem to recall that not all aircraft during the BoB period carried IFF. Might explain some of the fuzzy memories.

 

[nuuumannn]

I seem to recall that not all aircraft during the BoB period carried IFF.

Yup. This incident started that, even if by the BoB Fighter command squadrons were not fully equipped with IFF.

The Battle of Barking Creek

 

[buffnut453]

One more point about radios in RAF fighters....the practice of having a ground controller talking directly to pilots was first employed in 1934. And yet we're supposed to believe that 5 years later, on the brink of war, that the RAF didn't have radios fitted to all its fighters? Sorry, I just don't buy it.

 

[buffnut453]

I seem to recall that not all aircraft during the BoB period carried IFF. Might explain some of the fuzzy memories.

That sounds plausible. Bear in mind the RAF had used airborne radios since the fall of 1918. They were first used for ground-to-air comms in Bristol Fighters of 11 Squadron during the closing months of the First World War. At that time, only the formation leader had a radio. It simply beggars belief that the RAF stagnated in its use of radios from 1918 until 1939...but that's precisely what the cited anecdote would have us believe.

 

[pbehn]

I seem to recall that not all aircraft during the BoB period carried IFF. Might explain some of the fuzzy memories.

It is mentioned as a factor in the Battle of Barking Creek

from wiki
Hurricanes from 151 Squadron (also from North Weald), and Supermarine Spitfires from 54, 65 and 74 Squadrons based at Hornchurch Airfield scrambled. None of the Royal Air Force pilots had been in action and few had seen a German aircraft. Communication between the pilots and ground control was poor and there was no procedure for pilots to distinguish between British and Luftwaffe aircraft. Identification friend or foe (IFF) sets were still being developed and had not been installed in many RAF aircraft.[6]​[4]​

 

[elbmc1969]

That sounds plausible. Bear in mind the RAF had used airborne radios since the fall of 1918. They were first used for ground-to-air comms in Bristol Fighters of 11 Squadron during the closing months of the First World War. At that time, only the formation leader had a radio. It simply beggars belief that the RAF stagnated in its use of radios from 1918 until 1939...but that's precisely what the cited anecdote would have us believe.

VHF radio was just being introduced and production was too slow to equip all of the Hurricanes and Spitfires. It simply took time to ramp up production of this new technology. With the ultra-rigid formations that were the core of Fighter Command doctrine, there was no need for more than one aircraft to have a radio. Was this practical? No. But then, the RAF was doing many, many things that were utterly impractical at the time.

Yes, RAF aircraft had W/T (Morse code) communications long before the Second World War, but that's not relevant here.

Most air forces went through a period where only squadron leaders or flight leaders had radios. Cost was one reason (VHF voice was really, really expensive) and supply constraints was another.

 

[pbehn]

It may have depended where you were, rolling out things like new radios would go where it was most needed, with priority for those in France and SE England. For those up north they probably would have a problem remembering if something was before or after war was declared, until the invasion of France, little happened.

 

[buffnut453]

VHF radio was just being introduced and production was too slow to equip all of the Hurricanes and Spitfires. It simply took time to ramp up production of this new technology. With the ultra-rigid formations that were the core of Fighter Command doctrine, there was no need for more than one aircraft to have a radio. Was this practical? No. But then, the RAF was doing many, many things that were utterly impractical at the time.

Yes, RAF aircraft had W/T (Morse code) communications long before the Second World War, but that's not relevant here.

Most air forces went through a period where only squadron leaders or flight leaders had radios. Cost was one reason (VHF voice was really, really expensive) and supply constraints was another.

But they had HF voice radios before the VHF sets even existed (again, Sector Controllers first talked directly to pilots in 1934...and the aircraft had the TR9 HF radio set). How many times do I have to state that fact?

My comment about using morse was in relation to the idea that intra-formation communication was accomplished by the pilot using the navigation lights to signal to other aircraft. That seems totally bogus to me.

Again, please cite a source for your statement "there was no need for more than one aircraft to have a radio." You're ignoring the problem I originally identified....what happens when the one aircraft with the radio has an engine problem and RTBs?

I remain convinced that, in 1939, pretty much all RAF fighter aircraft in Fighter Command had HF radios. I'm waiting for anyone to provide sources (as opposed to conjecture or rumour) to prove me wrong.