Is Having A Private Pilot's License Of Any Use?

MIflyer · Mar 28, 2021

I see where the USAF is going to adopt a new approach for pilot applicants.

In the past a pilot applicant that had attained a private pilot's license was given extra credit. But that approach is now thought to be unfair, since only people who are pretty well off could afford to do that. This put many poorer and often minority applicants at a disadvantage so that preference for someone who already knows how to fly is being done away with. 86% of USAF pilote are White and that has been determined to be excessive.

The Air Force tried putting pilot trainees directly into T-37's for a while but later decided that was an expensive way to find out that an applicant was going to take too much effort to train. So they introduced training in T-41's (and other light aircraft for ROTC) to weed out those who were not suitable, or at least would take too long to train.

So, given the type of military aircraft we have today, does getting a private pilot's license first really indicate what can be expected of an applicant?

fubar57 · Mar 28, 2021

Wouldn't testing wannabees in a simulator be a cheaper and safer way off weeding out?

FLYBOYJ · Mar 28, 2021

MIflyer said:
I see where the USAF is going to adopt a new approach for pilot applicants.

In the past a pilot applicant that had attained a private pilot's license was given extra credit. But that approach is now thought to be unfair, since only people who are pretty well off could afford to do that. This put many poorer and often minority applicants at a disadvantage so that preference for someone who already knows how to fly is being done away with. 86% of USAF pilote are White and that has been determined to be excessive.

The Air Force tried putting pilot trainees directly into T-37's for a while but later decided that was an expensive way to find out that an applicant was going to take too much effort to train. So they introduced training in T-41's (and other light aircraft for ROTC) to weed out those who were not suitable, or at least would take too long to train.

So, given the type of military aircraft we have today, does getting a private pilot's license first really indicate what can be expected of an applicant?

A few comments - Does having a PPL help and should be looked as "extra credit" towards qualifying for USAF pilot training? Absolutely! Now this part - " This put many poorer and often minority applicants at a disadvantage so that preference for someone who already knows how to fly is being done away with. 86% of USAF pilote are White and that has been determined to be excessive."

UTTER BS! There are many programs where "poorer and minority students" can apply and either get grants, loans (that the AF will pay back) or scholarships where their initial flight training (A PPL) is paid for 100%.

Maybe this disparity exists because so-called minorities don't have an interest in becoming USAF pilots? If you really want to break this down, 13% of the US population is African American. 86% of USAF pilot are white. Do the math!

FYI - today ROTC and some Academy cadets are given preliminary flight training at the UPT at Pueblo CO. There they fly DA-20 and are screened. Some NCOs who are going to fly UAVs also go through the program as well as some NCOs who have qualified for OCS. I've been there and worked there and IMO the USAF has gone out of their way to make every effort to recruit minorities and women to fill open pilot slots. As we speak, the first transgender candidate is going through the program - if this doesn't show "minority diversity," I don't know what will.

FLYBOYJ · Mar 28, 2021

fubar57 said:
Wouldn't testing wannabees in a simulator be a cheaper and safer way off weeding out?

They do use sims as well but as discussed many times on here, it's not the same as getting a pilot candidate into a real airplane. FYI - I read about a Naval Aviator candidate who made it through his preliminary flight instruction in record time (flying T-34s) with the use of a flight sim set up at his home. This individual eventually got his wings. he was African American.

fubar57 · Mar 28, 2021

Sorry Joe, my error. I should have been a bit clearer and posted something like this...Home

FLYBOYJ · Mar 28, 2021

fubar57 said:
Sorry Joe, my error. I should have been a bit clearer and posted something like this...Home

View attachment 617590

No worries - Yep - those advanced sims are used at the IFT and USAF Academy. They help immensely but candidates still fly in an airplane.

And my correction - I've used the term UPT, it should be IFT.

Air Force Initial Flight Training (IFT) Program, Pueblo CO | Baseops

When I was working for Doss I actually got a DA-20 checkout and was offered an instructor's position there. I turned it down as I would have had to relocate.

pbehn · Mar 28, 2021

I would think the credit given is purely for enthusiasm for flying, for the actual skills required by a front line fighter pilot, being a natural at picking up video games in no time at all and good at sports of all kinds is probably worth more credit.

special ed · Mar 28, 2021

In 1960 at USAFA it was understood that not all wanted to be pilots. What is the goal today? If a person today does not attend a University but flys syms enough to pass into flight training, how is that regarded as a pilot candidate without a college degree?

FLYBOYJ · Mar 28, 2021

special ed said:
In 1960 at USAFA it was understood that not all wanted to be pilots. What is the goal today? If a person today does not attend a University but flys syms enough to pass into flight training, how is that regarded as a pilot candidate without a college degree?

The goal is based on the individual who gets accepted to the academy. My old boss's daughter gat accepted to the academy and initially had no interest in flying until she went through the soaring program. Last I heard She's flying E-3s.

You are not becoming a "pilot candidate" without a college degree, period.

special ed · Mar 28, 2021

My point exactly. The minority program must first include a four year degree. The candidate can not simply get a PPL and then go to fighter school.

MIflyer · Mar 28, 2021

One reason I asked (other that the YSM aspect) is that I know a retired USAF F-15 pilot who flies some truly thrilling airshow routines and also pilots a P-51 and a WWII biplane taking paying customers on rides. And he is of the opinion that most USAF pilots are "appliance operators" who use about as much skill as a teenager putting a Hot Pocket in the microwave. So maybe you just have to sit there, read the gauges, and push the right buttons IAW the manual. The Smithsonian series Air Disasters displays many cases of airline pilots sitting there and doing just that, with disastrous consequences, not noticing that they have dialed in a course that is over 90 deg off the required flight path or that the pressurization system has not even been turned on.

And flight simulators are useful in learning system operation and procedures, but, as you indicate, getting sick or scared or confused in one is rare. I recall one day I was in the pattern at our airport. It was a bit busy in terms of traffic and I looked back when I was on final and saw a Cessna 152 turning base with the pilot announcing that fact over the radio. I thought to myself, "How could any simulator even approach this?"

As to why 86% is not "low enough" in someone's estimation, you got me there.

FLYBOYJ · Mar 28, 2021

special ed said:
My point exactly. The minority program must first include a four year degree. The candidate can not simply get a PPL and then go to fighter school.

And it does, in fact there are slots set aside for minorities to first fill. The desired non-academy path is to get a 4 year degree (4 year college or university or 2 years at a JC and then on to a 4 year college or university), go through ROTC and then apply for the flying program.

FLYBOYJ · Mar 28, 2021

MIflyer said:
One reason I asked (other that the YSM aspect) is that I know a retired USAF F-15 pilot who flies some truly thrilling airshow routines and also pilots a P-51 and a WWII biplane taking paying customers on rides. And he is of the opinion that most USAF pilots are "appliance operators" who use about as much skill as a teenager putting a Hot Pocket in the microwave. So maybe you just have to sit there, read the gauges, and push the right buttons IAW the manual. The Smithsonian series Air Disasters displays many cases of airline pilots sitting there and doing just that, with disastrous consequences, not noticing that they have dialed in a course that is over 90 deg off the required flight path or that the pressurization system has not even been turned on.

And flight simulators are useful in learning system operation and procedures, but, as you indicate, getting sick or scared or confused in one is rare. I recall one day I was in the pattern at our airport. It was a bit busy in terms of traffic and I looked back when I was on final and saw a Cessna 152 turning base with the pilot announcing that fact over the radio. I thought to myself, "How could any simulator even approach this?"

As to why 86% is not "low enough" in someone's estimation, you got me there.

In certain situations I have to agree but I think all that changes in a combat situation where this "appliance operator" has to make very complicated decisions on what buttons to push. Errors will result in his or other's death.

pbehn · Mar 28, 2021

One problem the UK has is that the academic requirements of being a top pilot are very similar to those required by top banks and accountancy companies. Fortunately we don't need a huge number of pilots because those that choose to take it up are turning down a much higher paid job and longer term career.

special ed · Mar 28, 2021

Regarding a basic knowledge of some practical aerodynamics as an aid to flight training, an incident occurred with my first actual CFI while I was a teen. Early in one of the very first flight hours, he cut the throttle and said "what do you do now?" I pushed the nose down and began looking for a spot. Back on the ground, he asked why I knew to do that and I told him I build and fly models and knew we needed airspeed. After that I heard he made his students build and fly models as part of his preflight, although I can't confirm as by then H.S. was over and I was in USAF.

MIflyer · Mar 28, 2021

I read an article over at Air Facts Journal by a Hispanic student pilot in training in the US that took a young Mexican up for a demo ride. The prospective student was very enthused about learning to fly and knew a great deal about airplanes, much like probably all of us here were as teens. But when he actually left the ground for the first time he clearly was terrified the whole time, too scared to even talk. Presumably his plans for an airline career were dashed in one fell swoop.

I'd think it would be best to learn about things like that before you expended resources on a candidate that presumably suitably fit the "not part of the 86%" description. When I was on active duty in the USAF running into pilot candiates that had washed out was common. One Major told me he was a great pilot except for the part that involved landing. Another Major said she had washed out but they had let her do one solo flight in a T-37 first, and apparently she had landed the Tweet on that flight at a faster speed than just about anyone else in history. I was amazed at one Lt who told me he had gone all the way into T-38's but could not handle formation flying; I had no idea they would wash out someone that late. A guy I went to school with got a full scholorship in AFROTC, learned to fly in "IPT" and then had a motorcycle mishap that broke his leg so badly that they would not let him be a pilot. In each case, the Air Force then had to figure out where to use those individuals.

In any case, putting Other Factors ahead of demonstrating piloting ability means we will have more wash-outs. One hopes that the standards are not allowed to decay just to fix the imagined "86% problem."

Thumpalumpacus · Mar 28, 2021

FLYBOYJ said:
In certain situations I have to agree but I think all that changes in a combat situation where this "appliance operator" has to make very complicated decisions on what buttons to push. Errors will result in his or other's death.

I'm not a pilot, but I'd imagine that even in peacetime flying there can be moments where split-second decisions mean the difference. Even as a ground-pounder I've had a couple of those moments, in a much more forgiving milieu, so I'm loath to derogate any military pilot as an appliance-operator myself.

You and others here, with your experiences, have a better perspective to provide a more-informed judgement than my own. But I reckon anytime you're up in the air, no matter the plane, you'd damned well better have your wits about you.

gumbyk · Mar 28, 2021

There are plenty of reasons for not allowing the PPL to act as an advantage, and I'm not going to speak to the minority issue. But...
One ex-customer (a flying school) wouldn't offer a significant reduction in flight hours for any prior flight training. Their reasoning was that so often they had to 'unteach' bad habits either picked up since completion of the licence, or even during training. Also, they were training for a specific standard (commercial, IFR) and some of the training is just not as relevant to that operation.
Our Air Force doesn't give any credit as far as I understand it, and the first aircraft flown by pilot trainees is the T-6. Their training goals and program is completely different to what you do for a PPL.

pbehn · Mar 28, 2021

special ed said:
My point exactly. The minority program must first include a four year degree. The candidate can not simply get a PPL and then go to fighter school.

It can develop into a strange discussion. In the UK statistically the Welsh are the best singers and Rugby players per head of population. If you want a singer or Rugby player do you go to Wales or teach all the people in UK to not only sing and play Rugby like the Welsh but love and respect singing and playing Rugby in the same way. In WW2 before gyro gunsights were introduced the best marksmen generally were good shots with a gun or shotgun, do you give a credit to someone who is a crack shot when he arrives for training or teach the whole country to shoot? How many people do you want on a scheme to produce how many pilots? I have no idea how we select and train captains for UK aircraft carriers, we only have two.

FLYBOYJ · Mar 28, 2021

gumbyk said:
There are plenty of reasons for not allowing the PPL to act as an advantage, and I'm not going to speak to the minority issue. But...
One ex-customer (a flying school) wouldn't offer a significant reduction in flight hours for any prior flight training. Their reasoning was that so often they had to 'unteach' bad habits either picked up since completion of the licence, or even during training. Also, they were training for a specific standard (commercial, IFR) and some of the training is just not as relevant to that operation.

There's also a question of liability if credit was given by a school for something that was allegedly previously covered and later on there is an incident that involved that segment of training.

gumbyk said:
Our Air Force doesn't give any credit as far as I understand it, and the first aircraft flown by pilot trainees is the T-6. Their training goals and program is completely different to what you do for a PPL.

They did at one time, I think since the IFT program was started, civilian schools were done away with.

From 2006:

Introductory flight training undergoing changes > Air Education and Training Command > Article Display

To even qualify for the current IFT program there are certain hoops one has to go through. If a candidate has a PPL it is a leg up in the selection.

Once you complete IFT then you go into the T-6 from my understanding.

Is Having A Private Pilot's License Of Any Use?

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