DJ_Dalton1
Airman
- 24
- Mar 13, 2005
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Maestro said:In that case, I'll translate and post the two other fighter victories stories listed to Pierre H. Clostermann.
His 4th victory (FW-190) :
"Hazebrouk, August 27th 1943
In this beginning of evening, 224 B-17 from the 8th Bomber Command divided in 4 groups must bomb a forest at Watten, near Saint-Omer. The Allies suspected the Germans set up secrets weapons on this site (in fact, they were building a V-2 site). The first bomber formation was escorted by the 24 Spitfires from the Biggin Hill Wing (12 Mk. IX from the 341 Squadron and a equal number from the New-Zelander 485 Squadron) led by Cmdr. Mouchotte.
Arrived in advance at the rendez-vous point, the B-17s are attacked by an hundred of German fighters from the I and II/JG 2 and II and III/JG 26. The Spitfires join-in at top speed and a nice show begins. During the fight, 2 New-Zelander planes dive behind a FW-190. They are followed by an other Focke-Wulf themselves. The Sgc Clostermann try to warn them and engage the last one. He follows him at a high speed, shooting short bursts at him and hitting him many times. Hit by a last burst at less than 100 meters, the German plane roll on top and crash on the ground at an awful speed. The pilot probably was the unteroffizier Krieg from the 5./JG 26 aboard the FW-190A-4 (WNr.2379). On his side, Captain Boudier also shot down a FW-190. At the radio, Cmdr. Mouchotte say that he is alone, it'll be his last message. He'll fall near Dunkerque, shot down by Leutnant Radener, Kapitän of the 6./JG 26. An other pilot from the 6th Staffel, Feldwebel Mayer will shot down Sgc Magrot who will be taken P.O.W.
The Allied protection was efficient, because only three B-17 were shot down by the Flak while an other one was shot down by a fighter. In spite of the High Command's predictions, it was the first flight group that got beaten up. Two of the following flights didn't saw any Black Cross and for the last one, protected by the biggest part of the escort, the band of Focke-Wulf has been disperced.
Sources :
Le Grand Cirque, page 45
JG 26 War Diary, Vol. 2, page 144
"
His 5th victory (Bf-109G) :
"Saint-André-de-l'Eure, June 15th 1944
Jacques Remlinger and Pierre Clostermann decided to realise a project they were thinking about since december : the straffing of the Saint-André-de-l'Eure airbase, suspected of activity.
They take off at 09h50 with 12 other Spitfires from 602 Squadron. At half-way, they break the formation with the authorisation of the Squadron Leader. Arrived above the target, they spot an ennemy plane at low altitude. Clostermann head toward him at top speed, he must be quick. The airbase saw from 4000 meters high seemed damaged, but was in fact camouflaged to make peoples beleive it was. He pull-up at three or four km away from the airbase and hug the ground to avoid the Flak. At the other side of the airbase, the form of the plane appears - that's a Messerschmitt 109. Clostermann, at 50 meters high, cross at 750 km/h a second Bf-109 that he didn't saw, fockused on the other. The German Flak fired at will, without care for the Bf-109. Clostermann fires long bursts and see him turn-over and start a roll... The Messerschmitt crashed in a field south to the main airstrip.
Udet said:RG:
Drop it. This case is lost for the allies.
You said: "In general, it is much harder to fight over enemy held, or even contested territory, than it is over friendly territory".
That is a very correct point. It is kind of assuring to know would you get shot down, you will be received with tea and cookies at the very moment your feet touch the ground.
"Most Luftwaffe' kills were scored either over German held territory, or within a few miles of German held territory. "
Europe certainly is a small continent, so flying any great distances was not the top priority.
Getting back on the Spitfire topic, a good deal of the dogfights of 1942 took place over the Channel (was that enemy held territory?) and even a mere few miles off the southern British coast!
So 1942 saw the Spitfire squadrons very uncapable in dealing with the brand new Butcher Bird and the Bf109s, suffering heavy losses after having enjoyed kind of a very relaxed year of 1941 over the island, and while the Luftwaffe was having an orgy with the massive VVS in the east.
So the losses for the Luftwaffe during the BoB in 1940, if high, were comfortably within the sustainable parameter -never in the "disaster" mode as the allies put it-; the power and success of all Luftwaffe operations following the BoB substantiate this assertion.
What of RAF losses during the BoB? We know they were high as well. Though i have very serious doubts as to the actual impact of such losses for the RAF in the post-Battle of Britain period.
The performance of the RAF in 1942 is not one of a victorious air force, not one of an air force bringing up superior fighters to combat. Their condition simply did not improve until the USAAF began its assembly in the island.
I digress RG: drop it.
I´ve read kilometers of the allied revisionist delusion attempting to minimize the deeds of the hundreds and hundreds of experten. And you know something? The bulk of their ideas and comments are so ridiculous they do not resist the minimum scrutiny; one wonders what kind of wimp dared to expose himself as a Supreme Airhead, no matter how much he got paid for conducting such a particularly funny task, or what kind of interest and/or master he was serving.
Their pathology follows this sort of line: "While hundreds of German fighter pilots shot down hundreds of enemy planes in combat, two of them even reaching more than 300 kills, it is relevant to ask ourselves: is a German pilot with 325 confirmed kills the best?"
After reading such a piece of jewelry, i asked myself whether to laugh or to send a bucket of roses to the genius who wrote it.
RG, the allies have flatly failed in attempting to minimize the German experten.
Perhaps their strongest argument to make a case is the following:
(i) Unlimited number of missions flown while the USAAF guys had a rotation system.
There they use a trick. It happens to be like the oldest trick of the book now.
Number of missions flown by a German kid opposite to those flown by a USAAF guy is a very misleading way of handling the information.
What about the number of hours in the air?
What was the range of the Bf109? How many hours in the air did most German aces effectively spend, compared to guys who flew the Mustang plane that flew thousands of extremely long range missions deep into Germany as bomber escorts?
A Mustang pilot who flew say 70 long range escort missions to Germany in 1944 might have been for about 550 hours in the air: not far from Gunther Rall´s record. Furthermore, there can be cases of USAAF pilots who effectively flew more than many experten and did not score even one third of the kills of the German guy.
I have said all air forces made superb pilots, but gentlemen, the gold medal IS the gold medal.
Grab two USAAF aces, put them either on a Mustang or P-47 while I get Erich and put him on his late Bf109 and unleash a two vs one dogfight: i see a crystal clear outcome there.
I will reply to you other day regarding the eastern front aces.
Maestro said:And I also found this on an other web site :
Lithograph Setting: By the Fall of 1944, the German army was in retreat under cover of Luftwaffe fighters. Number 127 Wing, commanded by "Johnnie" Johnson, was sent to attack the withdrawing forces and on 27 September he scored his final victory near Venlo, Holland. In a grueling dogfight with nine Messerschmitts, Johnson's Spitfire was hit for the first and only time during the war. Most noteworthy, all but one of his 38 victories were achieved against single-engine fighters.
Note : J.E. Johnson only flew Spitfires through out the war. He flew Mk. Is, Vs, IXs and XIVs.
Nonskimmer said:It's alright. I got it.
KraziKanuK said:Should I have said 'one of Dalton's experten'?