Italian copies of the DB 601

Discussion in 'Engines' started by Sagittario64, Nov 22, 2011.

  1. Sagittario64

    Sagittario64 Member

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    I'm really into the Italian warplanes of wwii, and im up to the transition from the radial engined C.200s, G.50s, and Re.2000s, to the DB 601 powered C.202s and Re.2001s. what im wondering is, why it is said that the italian derivatives had less horsepower than the german ones? was it because of how they were manufactured? also didnt italians use different petrol than the germans? if so, how would that affect the 601's performance? the italian copy of the DB 601 i believe is called the Alfa Romeo R.A.1000 R.C.41I / R.C.44I(copied from wiki). can anyone give me some more detailed information or a link to some more info on the Italian DB 601 cousin?
     
  2. Denniss

    Denniss Active Member

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    I don't know if their manufacturing had problems (steel/alloy quality,etc) but if they used lower-grade fuel they were most probably restricted from using higher boost settings.
     
  3. davebender

    davebender Well-Known Member

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    Japan also had trouble with license manufacture of the DB601 engine. The USA had trouble with license manufacture of the Hs.404 20mm cannon and with copying the German Mg42 machinegun.

    It's not easy to manufacture state of the art military equipment even if provided with blueprints and jigs.
     
  4. Sagittario64

    Sagittario64 Member

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    i read somewhere that italian and japanese DB 601s lost around 100hp compared to the german DB601s. but for the italians, this didnt seem to be much of a problem in their airplanes, especially the Reggiane Re.2001. apparently you may have a less powerful engine, but if you have a good airframe, you can make up for that loss in power with aerodynamics
     
  5. Vincenzo

    Vincenzo Active Member

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    i'm not sure i remember right but i've read that italian 601 had a bit less HP (around 100 like you write) but can mantain the boost level for more time, thi swas for the most artigianal production of italians engine, but this give more trouble in the manutention
     
  6. Sagittario64

    Sagittario64 Member

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    Huh thats interesting. So the italian engine couldnt muster as much horsepower as the german engine, but could run at high speed longer than the german engine? i guess not all things dropped a peg when the italians made them
     
  7. Sagittario64

    Sagittario64 Member

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    #7 Sagittario64, Nov 22, 2011
    Last edited: Nov 22, 2011
    So how did the different fuels play into this? i know that the italian fuel wasnt compatible with american engines, and the german engines probably had some different effects with italian petrol in them. also, did the italians build the alfa romeo with a cavity or a cylinder for a cannon to fire through the propeller hub? because i see what looks very much like a hole for a cannon muzzle in the C.202's prop spinner
    [​IMG]
    and it is evident on the reggiane Re.2001 as well
    [​IMG]
     
  8. krieghund

    krieghund Member

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    Here are Italian specs for the DB-601A in a MC-202
     

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  9. Sagittario64

    Sagittario64 Member

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    I cant read italian, but it looks interesting'
     
  10. Vincenzo

    Vincenzo Active Member

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    DB 601 Aa omologation (official air force) power 1100 HP at 4400 meters, 2400 rpm boost 1,35
    for altitude from 0 to 6000 meters
    take off normal - 2400 rpm - boost 1,3-1,35 kg for square cm - time limit 1'
    take off emergency/overweight - 2400 rpm - boost 1,4-1,45 " " - " "
    climb normal - 2200 rpm - boost 1,2-1,23 " - no limit
    climb fast - 2400 rpm - boost 1,2-1,23 "- time limit 10'
    climb emergency- 2400 rpm - boost 1,3-1,35 "- time limit 5'
    max speed - as over
    dive - 2800 rpm - NA - time limit 10'

    over 6000 meters
    2400 rpm and full throttle no time limit
     
  11. Sagittario64

    Sagittario64 Member

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    haha i really likie the no time limit
     
  12. tomo pauk

    tomo pauk Creator of Interesting Threads

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    Instead of 'power' perhaps the better word should be 'regime', in my translation?
    The engine was to be operated from 0-6000m in those regimes, but I'm at odds what was allowed for beyond 6000m?

    I'm open for corrections :)
     

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  13. Sagittario64

    Sagittario64 Member

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    Im not sure whether the italians were fighting at altitudes of 6000m+ during 1942 when allied bombers had yet to commence strategic bombing against italy
     
  14. Vincenzo

    Vincenzo Active Member

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    the first two regimes are for take off (distacco)

    "sopra i 6000 m sono consentiti senza limiti di tempo 2400 giri/1' a pieno gas"
    literally ""over 6000 m are allowed unlimited time 2400 rpm / 1 'at full throttle"
     
  15. Sagittario64

    Sagittario64 Member

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    What exactly was the italian wwii manufacturing complex like? was it anything like the german counterpart? if their machines werent as good, that might explain the slight degradation in engine performance
     
  16. tomo pauk

    tomo pauk Creator of Interesting Threads

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    Germans themselves were having issues with DB-605, it was operating at restricted boost and developing 1300-1350 HP, instead of 1475, for almost a year (from Nov 1942 on).
    So, if Italian copies were developing anything above 1350 HP in 1943, that would mean better power than German ones?

    Thanks for correction, Vicenzo :)
     
  17. Sagittario64

    Sagittario64 Member

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    #17 Sagittario64, Nov 24, 2011
    Last edited: Nov 24, 2011
    Italians, while behind the times, were still up there with engineering. i mean look at the schneider trophy racers. those werent the world equivalent of the G.50 or C.200. though im kinda confused with the racers having better aerodynamic features than the fighters. i know the italians played the japanese game with light and nimble fighters, but surely they didnt have to look to outside sources for an engine good enough for their fighters. didnt they have enough resources to develop an engine to rival the DB601? if heard of certain italian inlines performing not so bad, like in the SAI.403, and a certain variant of the Re.2001. basically what im asking is, with the way engines hugely manipulated the air war in wwii, what did the italians contribute to it?
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
     
  18. davebender

    davebender Well-Known Member

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    Britain was the only nation to develop mass produced V-12s that could rival the DB601. So apparently it wasn't easy.

    IMO the more important question is why Italy couldn't license build Daimler-Benz engines identical to those produced in Germany. The Italians had unlimited access to German engineering assistance for the entire war. They could also purchase tooling and sub components directly from German manufacturers just as Daimler-Benz did. Italy should have standardized on the reliable 1,350 hp DB601E engine during 1941. Mate that engine to the Macchi C.202 airframe and turn them out like hot rolls. It would be as good as anything in the Med right up to 1944.
     
  19. Vincenzo

    Vincenzo Active Member

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    So you think that Klimov engines were not so good (like the Allison good for low altitude alone)?
     
  20. al49

    al49 Well-Known Member

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    Hi, as far as I know Macchi C 202 only had the two 12.7 mg under the upper part of the cowling, firing through the propeller arc plus, on some machines, two 7.7 mg in the wings. No cannon firing through the spinner; I don't know exactly why, I will investigate and eventually let you know.
    Alberto
     
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