It's interesting to note that Italy receives the least amount of attention in any WW2 conversation and yet it produced such high performing fighters. I have to remind myself not to count them out. True, they had some ground forces issues. But it would have been interesting if the Axis had standardized production of fighters with such heavy Italian influence...
Italy v. England - Air to air
- Thread starter DAVIDICUS
- Start date
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the lancaster kicks ass
Major General
- 19,937
- Dec 20, 2003
ok when you say that the germans "played around" with with the later italian designs and were impressed, what do you expect, they've just modified them!! and i am always dubious of test data, it's a test aircraft, it's gonna be modified of made specail in some way.............
and the title of this thread is "Italy v. England - Air to air", not "Italy with German Engines Vs. England- Air to air" surely we should be comparing British planes with British engines to Italian planes with Italian engines??
and the title of this thread is "Italy v. England - Air to air", not "Italy with German Engines Vs. England- Air to air" surely we should be comparing British planes with British engines to Italian planes with Italian engines??
FLYBOYJ
"THE GREAT GAZOO"
DAVIDICUS said:I've been reading some other WWII aviation forums. I have read more than one claim that the Reichsluftfahrtministerium Ministry of Aviation was contemplating the Fiat G.55 as a replacement for the Messerschmitt ME-109.
From: http://www.aldini.it/re2005/history.htm (I'm not posting this as relaible evidence that the Saggitario was superior to the Spitfire ... but we all know it was.)
In May of 1943, the first Sagittarios entered service with the Regia Aeronautica. The first prototype and several of the zero series aircraft were used operationally by the 362a Squadriglia, 22o Gruppo at Naples-Capodichino starting in May 1943, being used to defend Rome and Naples. The squadron had developed a rather daring method of attacking Allied B-17s which involved diving head-on with all guns blazing, then flipping the aircraft over on its back and diving away at the last minute.The Reggiane had good behaviour in close dogfight and , according to General Minguzzi, who flew both Re 2005 and Spitfire, was even better than the Spit in tight turns and handling.The operative life of the Sagittario was concluded by the Armistice , that came in the September 1943.
I saw an interview with Gunter Rall, and many German Pilots did the same thing, he said they could pull high "Gs" and break away more quickly rather than just turning or diving away right side up from a bomber stream.
- Thread starter
- #44
I take it that you don't think the P-51 was an American plane but really an American plane with a British engine built under license which by definition would make it not an American plane. Thus, if we were comparing the best American fighters to the best German fighters, under your analysis, the P-51 could not be included unless we were comparing the best American fighters with British engines to the best German fighters.
I don't know how to respond to your point about test aircraft necessarily being modified in some way, ostensibly to increase performance figures. I was under the impression that it was German and Italian production aircraft that were tested although I could be wrong. A test designed to capture the performance of production aircraft that does use a representative member is subject to sampling errors.
To err in your favor though, would you not agree that any German Fw-190's and Me-109's that were tested against Italian G.55's would have been modified to enhance performance as well?
You are unwilling to entertain this point or it never occurred to you. Either way, your anti-Italian bias is showing as further evidenced by statements such as, "... the spitfire, hurricane, gloster gladiator, mosquito, and yes, the Skua and the Roc were all better fighters than anything the italians had ..."
I don't know how to respond to your point about test aircraft necessarily being modified in some way, ostensibly to increase performance figures. I was under the impression that it was German and Italian production aircraft that were tested although I could be wrong. A test designed to capture the performance of production aircraft that does use a representative member is subject to sampling errors.
To err in your favor though, would you not agree that any German Fw-190's and Me-109's that were tested against Italian G.55's would have been modified to enhance performance as well?
You are unwilling to entertain this point or it never occurred to you. Either way, your anti-Italian bias is showing as further evidenced by statements such as, "... the spitfire, hurricane, gloster gladiator, mosquito, and yes, the Skua and the Roc were all better fighters than anything the italians had ..."
the lancaster kicks ass
Major General
- 19,937
- Dec 20, 2003
dude learn to take a joke 
Nonskimmer
Captain
I think he was, lanc. Either that or I'm sensing a lot of tension in this room. :-"
- Thread starter
- #47
the lancaster kicks ass
Major General
- 19,937
- Dec 20, 2003
one more point, that would not bother me in the least
cheddar cheese
Major General
Italian airframes were very good. The earlier planes such as the MC.200 had very good flight characteristics but simply sufered from being underpowered. Marry the Italian airframe to a German engine and you have a superb aircraft.
Sal Monella
Airman 1st Class
I take it then that the general consensus is that the British Spitfires were not a match for the five series Italian birds?
cheddar cheese
Major General
I dont think so. Later version of the Spitfire would have been better than them, but then again if the 5 series Italian fighters had gone on in production and development then they would probably have have kept ahead of the Spits.
Sal Monella
Airman 1st Class
I'm not sure I understand Mr. Cheese. So in September of 1943, were there any Spitfires that could match the 5 series Italian fighters. I think that's the gist of this topic.
cheddar cheese
Major General
I dont think there were 8) The only slight problem i can see are the Italian pilots
the lancaster kicks ass
Major General
- 19,937
- Dec 20, 2003
that's more than a slight problem.........
but i diss agree, i think the spit would have no problem beating a series 5.........
but i diss agree, i think the spit would have no problem beating a series 5.........
- Thread starter
- #55
the lancaster kicks ass
Major General
- 19,937
- Dec 20, 2003
the fact that i have no idea what a Saggitario is, would lead me to say no way ho!! the hurricane could easily take oge of them saggy things out.........
BombTaxi
Tech Sergeant
Great fan of the Hurri that I am, by the end of it's carrer in the MTO, the only a/c a Hurri could really take on was the MC.202 (I think Im right on the disgnation, I mean the big tubby one with a radial engine and 2x .50cal MGs). The 5 series would eat the Hurri for luch...
the lancaster kicks ass
Major General
- 19,937
- Dec 20, 2003
yes but not the spit...........
- Thread starter
- #59
No, I think you mean the Macchi MC-200 Saetta
Or, the Fiat G.50 Freccia
The Macchi MC-202 Folgore could quite easily handle a Hurricane. In fact, it was known to hold its own against the P-51 and the Spitfire. (Lanc would obviously disagree but keep in mind that he's been sniffing model airplane glue for some time now )
Or, the Fiat G.50 Freccia
The Macchi MC-202 Folgore could quite easily handle a Hurricane. In fact, it was known to hold its own against the P-51 and the Spitfire. (Lanc would obviously disagree but keep in mind that he's been sniffing model airplane glue for some time now
)
- Thread starter
- #60
