It's 1940 and you're....

[joy17782]

the dutch had a better class of subs in 1940 then the germans it was the o class,it even had a snorkel the germans didnt untill 1942, and if you look it up it was better even the dept on these boats were better and there sonar was better too , i say we use the dutch class and american sargo and tabor classand the range on the o class was 10,000 miles @8.5 knots, sumerge was 9.3 knots on surface was 19 knots, the torps were beter then the germans and also the snorkel gives it a advantage over all 1940 boats

 

[joy17782]

all so the tabor and sargo we almost the same heres some info on them 21 knots surface,9 knot sumerge ,8 tubes, 24 torps , range was 15,000 miles at 7.5 knots crush depts were 230, also we must look at this the taybor and sargo class were crew friendly, so thet could stay on patrol longer , thats a big advantage over the german boats ,, if you have ever been in a german ww2 sub it aint good !!!!!!!!!! in went into u 551 in chacago, god hope i spelled that right , and i tell ya after a few weeks in that i would have been ready too kill myself , ive been in a sargo too in texas it was soo much better ,

 

[Lucky13]

These ones....?

Displacement:
Standard: 982 tons
Surf: 1109 tons
Submerged: 1491 tons
Length: 264 feet 9 inches (80.70 m)
Beam: 24 feet 4 inches (7.41 m)
Draft: 12 feet 8 inches (3.87 m)
Propulsion: Two 7-cylinder Sulzer diesel engines, 2-stroke two 2650 hp motors driving two shafts
Speed: Surf: 19.5 knots (36.1 km/h)
Submerged: 9 knots (17 km/h)
Range: Surf: 10,000 nmi (20,000 km) at 12 knots (22 km/h)
Submerged: 27 nm at 8.5 knots (15.7 km/h)
Complement: 40
Armament: 14 torpedoes, incl. 6 reloads, and 40 mines, 40 mm machine gun

 

[joy17782]

also the sbd wasnt as good as the vultee a-35b vengeance, it was operational in 1940 heres some info on it ,range 2300 miles, speed 279mph cruise speed 230 mph , it also had 6 50 cals in the wing , the problem is vultee couldt produce then fast , small company , the navy went too dauntless and ask them if thet would produce them also they said no so thats why the sbd was the winner, remember us was,nt in the war yet and so couldt really tell dauntless too do that, alll i was thinking we should also do mtb,s i would pick the german schnell boat or the american mtbs better then anyone elses in my eyes

 

[joy17782]

yep thats it lucky they were good boats alot better then the germans i got too run into town the girlfried want wine tonight and some coors sounds good too me so i will be back on later around 7 or so but i got my navy readt too post ok

 

[joy17782]

also we should look at french and britch mine sweepers they had some good ones the french sweepers were better

 

[Lucky13]

also the sbd wasnt as good as the vultee a-35b vengeance, it was operational in 1940 heres some info on it ,range 2300 miles, speed 279mph cruise speed 230 mph , it also had 6 50 cals in the wing , the problem is vultee couldt produce then fast , small company , the navy went too dauntless and ask them if thet would produce them also they said no so thats why the sbd was the winner, remember us was,nt in the war yet and so couldt really tell dauntless too do that, alll i was thinking we should also do mtb,s i would pick the german schnell boat or the american mtbs better then anyone elses in my eyes

Between the two, the USN Elco boats could be a good choice.....

 

[joy17782]

yeah the elco boats were good one 2 , i guess it just depends on what you want out of your forces and what your thinking ill post MY navy tommrow or monday im still going over some stuff in my books i think your like mine i want a really fast battle fleet with the ships too dish out punishment and also be able too take it also i will have a mothball fleet, you know a reserve navy proberly make it all wwi and 1920 ships

 

[Lucky13]

Looking forward to it mate....

 

[joy17782]

hey lucky was looking up minesweepers and cant get much info on them but did find the canada had the bandor class , and the us navy had a wooden hall design, but cant find the class from what i read the brits and other,s use converted craft , but i know the french in 1930 built [purpose built minesweepers and they were ocean going ships , could we use converted ww1 destroyers? its your thread ! this is fun!! trying too use your mind , i like this thread !!!!!!!!!!!!!!! well im sitting here drinking a coors beer ,, and i must say americain beer is ok but compared too eropean beer it aint good ! can i use americain ww1 4 funnels as my mine sweepers ?the britsh did convert some i think 8 into minesweepers but that was in 41 if not then thats ok
also the echo class had plywood halls i think i will go with the german e boat , the iltailains had some good ones too but there engines and defense gear dont impress me also i want too say the itailians did have 2 aircraft carriers and the germans had 1 but they never made it too sea trails but they did have them , Thats just for information , and also i think we should use commision ships only !!!!!!! sea trail ships we commision ships !!!! THE PRINCE OF WALES IN 1941 WHEN she went after the bismark still had workmen on board working on her guns after sea trails, hey if there on sea trails then you can rush them in battle , might not be a smart think too do but when your in a pinch anything will do !

 

[Arsenal VG-33]

It would be nice if someone could draw a map of this fictitious country, with a list of it's natural resources, economics, industries, etc. I think it would be easier then to choose what kind of ship/aircraft/army that country could build or raise according to their respective population and overall wealth. An added factor would be if the raw material would have to be imported, or ships/weapons/aircraft bought from another country.

 

[Lucky13]

Good idea Arsenal...any takers?

 

[Lucky13]

hey lucky was looking up minesweepers and cant get much info on them but did find the canada had the bandor class , and the us navy had a wooden hall design, but cant find the class from what i read the brits and other,s use converted craft , but i know the french in 1930 built [purpose built minesweepers and they were ocean going ships , could we use converted ww1 destroyers? its your thread ! this is fun!! trying too use your mind , i like this thread !!!!!!!!!!!!!!! well im sitting here drinking a coors beer ,, and i must say americain beer is ok but compared too eropean beer it aint good ! can i use americain ww1 4 funnels as my mine sweepers ?the britsh did convert some i think 8 into minesweepers but that was in 41 if not then thats ok
also the echo class had plywood halls i think i will go with the german e boat , the iltailains had some good ones too but there engines and defense gear dont impress me also i want too say the itailians did have 2 aircraft carriers and the germans had 1 but they never made it too sea trails but they did have them , Thats just for information , and also i think we should use commision ships only !!!!!!! sea trail ships we commision ships !!!! THE PRINCE OF WALES IN 1941 WHEN she went after the bismark still had workmen on board working on her guns after sea trails, hey if there on sea trails then you can rush them in battle , might not be a smart think too do but when your in a pinch anything will do !

I think that we can do that....if we have enough good WWI destroyers, that's in good condition, nothing say that we can't rebuild them....

As for destroyers....what do you think about the French Le Fantasque class destroyers? They're still today, the worlds fastest destroyer class....sisters: Le Malin and L'Audacieux.

Class and type: Le Fantasque class destroyer
Named after: "Capricious one"
Laid down: 15 November 1931
Launched: 15 March 1934
Commissioned: 1 May 1936
Reclassified: March 1943

Displacement: 2570 tonnes
Length: 132.40 m
Beam: 11.98 m
Draught: 4.30 m
Propulsion: 4 Penhoët boilers
2 Parsons or Rateau engines
74,000 to 81,000 HP
2 propellers
Speed: 45 knots (40 nominal)
37 knots after refit
Range: 1,200 km at 34 knots
6,600 km at 17 knots
Complement: 10 officers
210 sailors
Armament: 5 x 138 mm (5.4-inch) guns (2 forward, 3 aft)
4 x 37 mm AA guns (original)
4 x 13 mm AA machine guns (original)
8 x 40 mm Bofors AA guns (after refit)
10 x 20 mm Oerlikon AA guns (after refit)
9 x 550 mm torpedo tubes in three triple mounts
40 mines

 

[timshatz]

It would be nice if someone could draw a map of this fictitious country, with a list of it's natural resources, economics, industries, etc. I think it would be easier then to choose what kind of ship/aircraft/army that country could build or raise according to their respective population and overall wealth. An added factor would be if the raw material would have to be imported, or ships/weapons/aircraft bought from another country.

That was a question we kicked around and came up with using countries that existed and their economic conditions when they existed. We came up with England Vs Germany/Spain. Year is 1940, Month is December. All colonies that England had at that time are still in her possession.

Germany is run by Hitler, Spain by Franco, England is unknown.

Germany has not lost all the ships from WW1 but has had to scrap a bunch due to the Great Depression. Same problem with England. German forces amount to about 80% of Britian's forces, Spain is about 60%.

Right now, we are in the process of figure out what those fleet's look like.

 

[timshatz]

As for destroyers....what do you think about the French Le Fantasque class destroyers? They're still today, the worlds fastest destroyer class....sisters: Le Malin and L'Audacieux.

That is one fast Can. I was on a Gearing when it did a speed run from Norfolk to Phila. Avg speed was 33 (or was it 31) kts. Anyway, it was fast and guys were puking all over the place. Even had puke on the Overhead ( commonly known as the ceiling on dry land) in the Head. We were rolling so much that a guy who barfed parrallel to the floor could have it hit the Overhead.

Never been so happy to cross the breakwater and go under local speed restrictions in my life.

Anyway, getting back to the Destroyer. Just because she can run at 45 kts doesn't necessarily mean anybody thought it was a good idea. You can only do that in very calm seas or you'll probably wreck your ship.

But the numbers, for numbers sake, are impressive.

 

[timshatz]

Anybody know where we sit with regards to the big stuff. We have the 100/90/60 split with the British/German/Spainish fleets but what does that translate into regarding CV-BB-CA-CL-DD-DE-SS?

What numbers, what ships, how many?

Leave this one to Freebird or Lucky as my knowledge of exactly what was available when is somewhat limited.

 

[Lucky13]

Must be SOME feeling going that fast on calm sea on a destroyer, it's one thing with those smaller boats, but a destroyer at 30-40 knots...wow!

 

[Lucky13]

NEWSFLASH!!

Spain is massing troops and equipment towards Gibraltar....!

 

[Freebird]

That would work for me as a starting place for the RN ships. Give Spain 40% less. What about Germany? Figured 10% more originally but you made the statement that it would make the war a non-event. I see and agree with your perspective. So we give them, what, 80%? Enought to make the Brits sit up and take notice but not enough to end the war in the first major combat.

Also, enough so the combined total is greater than Britian's total. Forces England on the attack, makes the scenario more interesting.

Tim I think you might be underestimating the # of ships needed by the Maritime power, I don't think they could survive below 150%, in Capital ships cruisers, otherwise they would probably have to sue for peace. If the British ever allowed their navy to be equalled by their enemies, they would barely be able to manage to protect the UK from invasion, and to secure convoys from Halifax Trinidad. All heavy naval units would be needed for this, meanwhile abandoning all of the colonies in the Indian Ocean, including Egypt, India, Burma, etc. The army would evacuate all of Africa Arabia conceding it to the Axis. What would be the point of fighting on? They would take Hitler's offer of an armictice allow the Nazi's rule Europe Asia and hold on to the UK colonies. If they have the entire Royal Navy in the N. Atlantic facing off against a combined Axis navy that is equal or close to it, there is nothing to prevent surface raiders or Axis cruisers from cutting off all merchant traffic going to Egypt, India the Far East.

But don't take my word for it, see how the deployment is of the Royal Navy in Dec 1940, and tell me how you would deploy it to face a threat equal in size

Here is a link to a most excellent website, WWII cruisers. You can use the "fleet locater" in the info section to see where all the RN KM capital ships cruisers are.

Fleet Dispositions

 

[Freebird]

Sorry the Term medium cruiser {CM} is one that I am used to using in debates. It is unofficial and not a term you will hear anywhere else or in any book.
We used it to cover the 7000-10000 ton range. Lights were less than that and Heavy bigger.
The traditional if its a 6in its a light cruiser and if its got 8 in its a heavy makes little sense in the real world. It means the Brooklyn with 15 x 6in and heavy armour is the same as an Arethusa which has 6 x 6in and has very thin armour, or even an old WW1 cruiser.
Just ignore the term for this forum.

A very excellent idea, Glider, I will agree that all cruisers between 7,000 -10,000 tons with 9 or more 6" guns will be CM {I assume that you mean design tons, not full load}

Anybody know where we sit with regards to the big stuff. We have the 100/90/60 split with the British/German/Spainish fleets but what does that translate into regarding CV-BB-CA-CL-DD-DE-SS?

What numbers, what ships, how many?

Leave this one to Freebird or Lucky as my knowledge of exactly what was available when is somewhat limited.

OK I will propose a scenario, then see where it leads.

I will give each side roughly the same size, and see how you would set up your fleet.

Lets assume that the war progresses as it did until Dec 1940, at which time Spain joins Italy Germany, and attacks Gibraltar. The Vichy French under Laval declare war on Britain at this time {Upset by the attack at Mers-el-Kebir the activities of the Free French} All Vichy Naval forces go over to the British except for the force in Dakar, that joins the Free French instead {alliance with the Germans is just too much} So the Richelieu, 2 x Duqesne CA + 2 x Montcalm CM join the Allies. The Vichy navy consists of 2 "Bretagne" battleships, Paris Ocean battleships, 2 Dunkerque BattleCruisers, Bearn CV, 5 x CA, 4 x CM, 5 x CL

The last 2 Spanish Dreadnoughts sank in 1937 {1 by mine, 2nd by mag explosion} In 1940 they have 1 CA {Canarias, 10,000 tons, 8 x 8"} 5 CL {Navarra, Nunez, Alfonso etc. 4,700 - 7,400 tons, 6 or 8 x 6" guns} left.

Suppose you give them 2 old-style BB's {Bayern Class} which have been repairing or refitting until Dec 1940 {very similar to Revenge or Royal Oak, 600', 8 x 15" guns 22 knots)

The Germans have replaced the triple 11" guns on the Scharnhorst class with twin 15" turrets, making them into fast battleships. The Germans have completed Graf Zeppelin CV, Seydlitz CVL, and De Grasse CVL, while the Italians have the Aquila, and the French have Bearn, which is classed as a CVE due to the slow speed. All CVL's CVE's have about 22 aircraft, the CV's have about 40 aircraft, except for Ark Royal at Scapa has 60 aircraft. BB is for modern Battleships, Bismarck, King G.V., Littorio etc. which can make 28 - 30 knots. The "B" designates older Dreadnought Battleships that can only make 21 - 23 knots, like Andrea Doria, Provence, Barham or Resolution.

Note that on the map British are Red, French are Blue, Germans Grey, Italian/Spanish are Yellow.

If anyone has any questions about what units are where go ahead and ask. I assume that the British Naval units in Gibraltar are in Freetown or Bathhurst in West Africa, the fortress garrison in Gibraltar is about to fall, the shore guns have been destroyed.

What would your strategy be as the Royal Navy?